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Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

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Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#81

Free speech has taken quite a beating in recent days. It's weird watching many of my friends and people I respect cheering while it happens. I honestly don't know what we do to fix our current situation where lies so easily go viral, but making Twitter arbiters of truth doesn't seem like the best solution.

I agree. I'm part of the "let the buyer beware" camp, despite the chaos that might entail. I would rather see social media sites focus more on not putting people in bubbles rather than trying to police what they say.

If people can't see through the BS, then we get what we deserve. Every change like this is going to have unconscious bias and will likely be taken as proof of manipulation by people who don't share that bias. The only winning move is not to play.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's never a situation where you let people say whatever they want What? There are tons of places where the only restrictions on what you say, is determined by the law. > You have to set some of sort of standard The standard could be "Whatever is allowed by US law", which is extremely non restrictive on speech.

>> There's never a situation where you let people say whatever they want > What? There are tons of places where the only restrictions on what you say, is determined by the law. So there are still restrictions then and people can't say whatever they want? > The standard could be "Whatever is allowed by US law", which is extremely non restrictive on speech. voat.co is a clone of reddit where the only difference is no r…

> So there are still restrictions

The amount of speech that is allowed by US law is so extremely broad that those restrictions may as well not exist.

IE, lets say someone were to argue "I think it is totally OK for the government to arrest and execute people who disagree with the government in any way!", and then backed up this belief by saying "Well, you support restrictions on free speech as well! You don't think that people should be able to send mass death threats to everyone, 100 times a day! Therefore, since you support restrictions on free speech, it is totally OK to arrest anyone who disagrees with the government in any way!"

This is the argument that you are making. And it is a bad one.

The reason why it is bad, is because the restrictions on speech, in the US are almost non-existent, and that is not a good justification to do other things that are much more restrictive, such as in my extreme example of arresting anyone who disagrees with the government.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#83

Free speech has taken quite a beating in recent days. It's weird watching many of my friends and people I respect cheering while it happens. I honestly don't know what we do to fix our current situation where lies so easily go viral, but making Twitter arbiters of truth doesn't seem like the best solution.

The classic rebuttal to free speech arguments which I'm sure you've heard, is that the first amendment doesn't apply to private companies, and that your right to free speech doesn't entitle you to a megaphone, etc.

I think a more nuanced and useful way to look at things is to think of Twitter as an amplification machine rather than a speech machine. I can say what I want out loud, I can write whatever letters I want, I can make my own website if I want, etc., but putting it on Twitter causes Twitter to amplify it. Many of these announced changes pertain to what Twitter chooses to amplify - and how - rather than what it permits people to say. (As far as I can tell, the only tweets they are actually removing are those that call for violence, a standard for censorship that seems quite reasonable.)

If we think in terms of how and when to amplify speech, rather than trying to figure out what kind of speech to censor, we can hit upon more workable improvements. Twitter's proposals here, under that framing, are a mixed bag.

Twitter provides several ways to amplify posts - some of which are intentional on the part of users, some not. For example, if I follow a person, I'm telling Twitter to show all that person's posts in my feed. If I reply to a tweet, I'm telling Twitter to show my post to that person in their notifications, and also show it to other people who engage with it. If I quote-rt a tweet, I'm telling Twitter to show it to everyone who follows me, alongside my commentary. Etc.

On the other hand, if I like a post, or engage with it in any way, I'm not telling Twitter to show it to anyone - but my Like may cause it to recommend the post to others, sort it upward in the algorithmic timeline, etc. This unintentional amplification can have unintended consequences, because the system cannot tell when engagement metrics are due to positive or negative characteristics of the post.

Quote-retweets are also rife with unintended consequences. If someone "dunks" on a post by quote-retweeting it with criticism or mockery, they're betting that their comment is going to lower the status of the person they are quoting or persuade people the post is false. But the folks reading their post may not agree - and the original post might have been an bad faith attempt at distraction, which a dunk then amplifies. Alternatively, if a popular account dunks on a much less popular account, it can (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not) trigger a wave of hostility and harassment.

So I like parts of Twitter's changes here - they have the right to try and amplify true information more than false information, and removing flagged posts from recommendations will do that. Additionally, removing recommended content from non-followed accounts from the algorithmic timeline is positive as well - it reduces unintentional amplification and puts more control in the hands of users. But their encouragement of the quote-retweet is concerning. They don't seem to realize how effective a weapon it can be.

I would argue that any automated recommendation of user-generated content needs to be carefully controlled, if not abolished altogether. Recommendation systems cannot distinguish between content with high engagement due to quality, and high engagement due to emotionally manipulative dishonesty or other negative factors. And specially interested (or bigoted) political actors, who are simply interested in "the most effective way to attack / promote X" rather than arriving at the most truthful position, can test and manipulate those recommendation systems far more effectively than folks trying to engage with nuance and good faith.

This "situation where lies so easily go viral" seems to me to have intensified starting in around 2014 to 2015 - when Twitter introduced the quote-retweet, and Facebook introduced the algorithmic timeline. I don't think "free speech" is the right framing for thinking about it. The recent phenomenon is not the existence of extremist political movements or medical misinformation, but rather, their amplification.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#84

Free speech has taken quite a beating in recent days. It's weird watching many of my friends and people I respect cheering while it happens. I honestly don't know what we do to fix our current situation where lies so easily go viral, but making Twitter arbiters of truth doesn't seem like the best solution.

Twitter is a community and all communities require some level of moderation. There's never a situation where you let people say whatever they want, whenever they want without any moderation at all and everything goes well. You have to set some of sort of standard. We already do this as a society, so why shouldn't that extend to Twitter?

> We already do this as a society, so why shouldn't that extend to Twitter?

We don't do this in the US, it's called the 1st amendment.

https://youtu.be/-OhyBJxg9RA?t=170

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#85
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeking alternative truth. Everyone cheers for Twitter because they think they are going to censor people in a way they agree with. But what about the day that changes? What about the day they decide to censor you instead? On one hand, I agree that businesses should be free to operate as they like & you can vote with your feet if you don't like the rules. However, we also have to be realistic about the fact t…

>But what about the day that changes? What about the day they decide to censor you instead? What about it? People get banned from Twitter all the time - literally every hosted platform and service moderates and bans content as they see fit. The terms of service you agreed to when using that platform likely includes phrases like "for any reason" and "in perpetuity throughout the universe." So I guess I make another ac…

Social media platforms have an even more powerful weapon: the ability to share your perception of reality. Sure, they can't arrest you, but they can slowly shift your world view just by amplifying some stories and not others.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#86
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"predominate source of trending information is well-meaning individuals and not motivated state-level actors intent on disrupting an election." What evidence do you have that the predominant source of trending information is motivated state-level actors? That is an incredibly bold statement, and the framing you chose is such that there needs to evidence to the contrary, rather than evidence to support such a claim. E…

You could simply google "twitter bots state level actors" and find plenty of reading.

There is plenty about the earth being flat too, doesn't prove anything.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#87
post #2

I'm not sure why Twitter thinks that quote tweets are better than retweets. Propaganda exists to be spread, and it's long been obvious that "This is wrong/bad [quote]" just serves to further spread the propaganda and raise the propaganda artist's profile. Also, you can disable retweets on accounts you follow but not quote tweets.

It's not that they're better per se, it's that there's more effort involved. Pushing people towards quote tweeting instead adds a little extra friction and slows down the spread

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#88
post #34

Maybe sites like Twitter, Facebook etc should be US only. I mean only US users allowed to use it. If they do this with the US election then which will be the next? UK? Australia? And why not really? People would even cheer for it

I think the situation in the USA is quite unique. UK and Australia is not (as of yet) in any serious risk of their democracy being undermined in the next election.

Sure you can say they could have had similar measures before the Kyrgyzstan or the Belarus elections. But there bad actors were perfectly able to undermine the democracy without the aid of social media.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#89

Reading these headlines is like living in a dystopian waking nightmare. This is not remotely at all the role that Twitter or any other Silicon Valley tech company should play in society.

I strongly believe Twitter the company will come to deeply regret this direction. The employees who made it happen will simply move on to the next thing.

Re: Additional steps we're taking ahead of the 2020 US Election

#90
post #2

I'm not sure why Twitter thinks that quote tweets are better than retweets. Propaganda exists to be spread, and it's long been obvious that "This is wrong/bad [quote]" just serves to further spread the propaganda and raise the propaganda artist's profile. Also, you can disable retweets on accounts you follow but not quote tweets.

It makes it harder for bots to just retweet and amplify without having to write unique content. If they all just retweet with "I agree", that is easy to Twitter to detect and filter.
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