Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#121

Post by krapp » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

RandomTisk wrote: post #120

tyre wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, fine in principle. Doesn’t stand up one second in the real world. I agree that the ideal of every adult is being educated, taking time to check facts, having a critical mind. But that’s not realistic. It’s not where we are. And the facts of democracy are that uneducated people vote. People unprepared for the internet crazies. They’re not handling Fox News as entertainment or tabloids. They think it’s real. So,…

> Again, fine in principle. Doesn’t stand up one second in the real world. The first amendment and the resulting USA would be my prime counter example. The US wasn't an accident, freedom of speech is a hard requirement for free people and letting companies censor people "for our good" is antithetical to the nth degree.

The first amendment allows companies to "censor people," that is part of the people's freedom of speech and freedom of association. It only prevents Congress from doing so.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#122

Post by mountainb » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #33

Repeat after me, social media is not reality. Social media is the new tabloid salacious media. Yes it can be fun, entertaining, informative and educational, it can also be propaganda, misinformation, astroturfing, and a big high school like popularity contest where people are fake and narcissistic but probably insecure. The truth is the internet is teaching the biggest lesson ever in critical thinking and getting you…

People will look at you funny if you inject fentanyl in public, but we should have the same negative social reaction to social media users and the same negative social reaction to the platform makers as one does to dealers of hard drugs. The immunity from consequences written into the law is creating some toxic effects. Give a corporation a grant of legal immunity and you should not be surprised that they everything that they can to shunt negative externalities onto society to the extent that it improves their metrics (financial and otherwise).

If you gave an industrial corporation a grant of immunity for emitting pollutants, would you be surprised if they set every river they could on fire...?

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#123

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

upofadown wrote: post #47

I guess this is the world's "Eternal September"[1]. Eventually everyone will understand how this all works and this will no longer be a significant issue. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

[deleted]

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#124

Post by RandomTisk » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #20

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can’t and they shouldn’t. The potential good that could come from this does not outweigh the catastrophic failure modes of this approach. Some enlightened people understood this, hundreds of years ago. Its time for another amendment. EDIT since this is related, another horrendous idea that recently disgraced my timeline https://twitter.com/yelp/status/1314197509623947265?s=21

What do you propose to combat disinformation campaigns? Look at what’s happening. The end results of allowing anything to happen on social media are not good. We’re not in a good place. So we can ignore that for rigid principles, or admit that those principles don’t stand up to the real world. No, no one hundreds of years ago had any idea about the scale or effect of social networks. Yes there was propaganda and brai…

People tend to over-inflate the potential impact of fake information sources. False information tends to hurt people and we're extremely adept at recognizing false agents, whether they be random tweets, facebook posts or media outlets. Some people walk around so afraid of someone spreading a lie that could hurt them that they insist on authoritarian controls on speech but the fear is completely unfounded.

For smart intelligent people, false statements create untrustworthy agents. For oppressive despots, false statements are always the most expedient shortcuts to some desired outcome. What countries like China are doing are playing the despot and preventing their people from thinking critically as much as possible, and silicon valley thinks that's a wonderful idea.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#125

Post by bentcorner » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #82

drawkbox wrote: post #33

Repeat after me, social media is not reality. Social media is the new tabloid salacious media. Yes it can be fun, entertaining, informative and educational, it can also be propaganda, misinformation, astroturfing, and a big high school like popularity contest where people are fake and narcissistic but probably insecure. The truth is the internet is teaching the biggest lesson ever in critical thinking and getting you…

We need a broadsheet social media that is (relatively) healthy for you.

IMO removing clickable links and link previews would go a long way to make social media better.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#126

Post by bmarquez » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #118

olivermarks wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also argue that what's left of the corporate media is rapidly losing credibility, highly partisan and rarely objective. this feeds social network frenzy, a lot of which is people parroting and attempting to amplify ideas from their preferred channels. There's always been a huge corporate yellow journalism problem, now it is possible to instantly orchestrate rage and frenzy repeated across countless personal accou…

> I'd also argue that what's left of the corporate media is rapidly losing credibility, highly partisan and rarely objective. How so, exactly? This is kind of an odd moment, where the US president is deeply incompetent and a shameless liar, and some seem to think it's biased for the mainstream media to even point those facts out. There are definitely some aspects of the traditional media that fit your description (al…

> where the US president is deeply incompetent and a shameless liar, and some seem to think it's biased for the mainstream media to even point those facts out.

Deeply incompetent is an opinion, not a fact. So yes, it is a form of bias.

Actual fact-based reporting would be articles like "President did XXXX on YYYY" and leave the opinions and talking heads out. It would also be fairly dry and not generate outrage click traffic which media companies seem to thrive on these days.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#127

Post by gralx » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

kfarr wrote: post #79

gralx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it drives huge engagement is an indictment of public education.

Yes, on the other hand a lot of misinformation tactics hook into built-in human tendencies and requires more than just general education to identify and be immune.

It requires at least education into those tendencies and introspective drills to overcome them. For kids, drills would mean roleplaying with lying games, comparison shopping, that kind of thing.

We've understood those tendencies much better since Edward Bernays, but I do not know of any young-adult curriculum that teaches them. It would be good for everybody.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#128

Post by RandomTisk » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #121

RandomTisk wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Again, fine in principle. Doesn’t stand up one second in the real world. The first amendment and the resulting USA would be my prime counter example. The US wasn't an accident, freedom of speech is a hard requirement for free people and letting companies censor people "for our good" is antithetical to the nth degree.

The first amendment allows companies to "censor people," that is part of the people's freedom of speech and freedom of association. It only prevents Congress from doing so.

It ensures the freedom of the press, and had the founders envisioned a day when three corporations miles from each other had more power than the entire press and government combined to censor citizen's speech I have no doubt that the first amendment would read a bit differently today. For a lot of people, social media has become the press in some ways.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#129

Post by hnracer » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #102

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such as, say, Fox News buying Facebook? Or Soros? Or RT buying Twitter? Or a Saudi sovereign wealth fund? Now how do you feel about Twitter and Facebook deciding what misinformation is?

> Now how do you feel about Twitter and Facebook deciding what misinformation is? I don't see how that changes anything except the political leanings of the website operators. Can you explain what the problem is?

One problem is that the power to vet/censor particular things may be beneficial in a certain pair of hands but disastrous in another, especially when you're dealing with a platform that has extremely powerful network effects and controls so much of the information flow in society. To reiterate the point of the previous comment, would you feel comfortable if FB came under control of the Saudis while it was engaged in extensive vetting? I would not. Naval says that one test of a good system is whether you can hand the keys over to your adversary and things don't go wrong, which applies well in this case.

Another problem is that vetting (/censorship) is often supported when it's "your side" doing the vetting, but I don't trust that any politically tilted group of individuals will engage in unbiased, non-partisan vetting. FB's staff is of a certain political demographic that differs substantially to the country at large and this will likely sway the decision making away from a fair and balanced outcome.

If FB or Twitter engages in vetting I would like to see it done in a satellite office set up explicitly for that purpose where great effort is made to select individuals without extreme political leanings.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#130

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

gralx wrote: post #108

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your view of what misinformation looks like is a bit outdated. It's not just dumb chainmails anymore. One claim I saw passed around recently, for example, was that this particular video on the White House lawn was greenscreened. The people I saw discussing it were saying things like "you can tell cause of how pixelated the background is" or "look, the trees are on a 10 second loop!". I don't know what we coul…

Healthy skepticism is not only easy to teach but easy to drill, and yet I remember no time in my early education that it was even a topic in class, except maybe tangentially - a short story theme, a blurb about a famous scientist or inventor. I doubt that has changed.

In California at least, skeptical analysis is in the curriculum from sixth grade onwards. I was under the impression it was there in all states, although I could be mistaken.