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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#81

Post by TillE »

dtech wrote: post #47
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

In the EU consumer protection law mandate this. You have to be able to cancel in all the same ways that you can sign up. The most common way to pay subscriptions is with SEPA direct debit, and banks have to let you revoke those authorizations even retro-actively for 90 days.

Good luck cancelling pretty much any service in Germany without literally sending them a letter in the mail, regardless of how you signed up.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#82

Post by Daniel_sk »

dtech wrote: post #47
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

In the EU consumer protection law mandate this. You have to be able to cancel in all the same ways that you can sign up. The most common way to pay subscriptions is with SEPA direct debit, and banks have to let you revoke those authorizations even retro-actively for 90 days.

SEPA direct debit? First time I hear that anyone is using this for subscriptions, aren't you from Germany? :-) SEPA direct debit is also used here (Slovakia) but usually to pay for internet/phone/electricity/ and other bills, you basically give them a mandate to draw up to a certain amount and you can revoke it anytime. Debit (or less common credit) cards are I think pretty common for subscriptions but I haven't heard about any shady tactics of preventing you from unsubscribing, I guess that's because all of that is regulated. And in worst case I guess I could call my bank.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#83

Post by mhh__ »

joshstrange wrote: post #75
croh wrote: post #27

Google/Apple should drop the percentage. 30% is too high.

Honest question, should Sony/MS/Nintendo also drop their percentage? How about the cut stores get to put products on their shelves? Because whenever I zoom out and look at more that just Google/Apple the more I see examples of this happening everywhere and I wonder why there isn't similar outrage. Like with the whole "FB mad that Apple wouldn't let them call out the 30% cut" thing, I mean Kroger isn't going to let a…

Probably. Although it's worth saying that phones are the PCs of 10 years ago, whereas games consoles are still just games consoles.

Consider that the profit margin for a train line might be something like a few percent, and that's for a capital intensive industry, these companies charge 30% for what?

This is why they should regulate so that no product, where it can be reasonably applied, should have a single app store. If you want to pay more for a better service that's fine, but with no competition it's just a racket.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#84

Post by Daniel_sk »

TillE wrote: post #81
dtech wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU consumer protection law mandate this. You have to be able to cancel in all the same ways that you can sign up. The most common way to pay subscriptions is with SEPA direct debit, and banks have to let you revoke those authorizations even retro-actively for 90 days.

Good luck cancelling pretty much any service in Germany without literally sending them a letter in the mail, regardless of how you signed up.

Germany is very specific in many of these things and the rest of EU is different :-).

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#85

Post by JonLim »

wycy wrote: post #56
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

> ex: NYT NYT is a great example of this. It took me multiple attempts over a span of 2 days to cancel my NYT subscription. There have been a few times since then when I've been tempted to re-subscribe (their election results tools are great), but remembering how hard it was to unsubscribe, I don't think I'll go back.

Am curious: what made it so difficult to cancel / unsubscribe?

If you subscribed with a credit card, did the option of chargebacks ever come up? (Asking because these sorts of situations seem perfectly in line for disputing with your credit card provider.)

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#86

Post by fatbird »

jungturk wrote: post #74
r00fus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame the "no regulation" crowd for that. Well functioning regulation and consumer protection is what promotes good things by forcing bad actors to get in line.

In theory, a competitive market could achieve the same goals, but in practice, it seems like marketplaces often need some regulatory nudging to get over the humps.

Every time we say "in theory a competitive market could achieve the same goals," we find that the entrepeneurs don't have the same goals. The problem isn't the mechanism of capitalism, it's the naive belief that consumer goals and seller goals are aligned.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#87

Post by macjohnmcc »

wycy wrote: post #56
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

> ex: NYT NYT is a great example of this. It took me multiple attempts over a span of 2 days to cancel my NYT subscription. There have been a few times since then when I've been tempted to re-subscribe (their election results tools are great), but remembering how hard it was to unsubscribe, I don't think I'll go back.

The process to unsubscribe should be no more onerous than the process to subscribe. The NYT falls flat on this one intentionally I'm sure.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#88

Post by dsissitka »

wycy wrote: post #56
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

> ex: NYT NYT is a great example of this. It took me multiple attempts over a span of 2 days to cancel my NYT subscription. There have been a few times since then when I've been tempted to re-subscribe (their election results tools are great), but remembering how hard it was to unsubscribe, I don't think I'll go back.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but...

If you change your address to an address in California you're given the option to cancel online.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#89

Post by coder543 »

powersnail wrote: post #73
everybodyknows wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but notice the poison pill: "... no notifications to customers about an external subscription service". Protonmail has a free tier, subject to resource limits: https://protonmail.com/pricing What should the app do when those limits are hit that Apple could not choose to call a "notification"?

Considering it's protonmail, email them the notification.

That's exactly the problem. Apple doesn't want any notification of this to be visible to the user in the app. The fact that the app handles the user's email isn't guaranteed to be a relevant distinction to the random reviewer who is tasked with reviewing the app.

Apple has not spelled out clearly that this is okay for them to do, which means that it is a risk.

The user would be receiving a literal iOS notification from this app that talks about upgrades available outside the app.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#90

Post by macjohnmcc »

walterbell wrote: post #79
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

Yes, Apple subscriptions are a reliable way to signup for HBO or Showtime to binge-watch a specific show. Signup and immediately cancel the subscription, that gives you 30 days to watch. No further payment management actions needed.

It is funny that if you sign up for a 7 day free trial of Apple TV+ that if you cancel immediately before the end of the 7 days your trial is up immediately as well.
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