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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

thenewatlantis.com

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#221

Post by godelzilla »

blackbear_ wrote: post #123
feralimal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. It is absolutely wider than science. The problem more widely, is that we trust others. Bear with me - I know this sounds bad. The fact is that we trust too much. We should be verifying all the claims that are made to us. We would soon learn discernment over what sources are trustworthy (friend's personal experiences - ie anecdotal evidence) versus evidence presented by those that govern us on the media (…

> We would soon learn the difference between knowing and believing. Well said, and it's not always so easy. Skepticism and critical thinking are in very short supply, that is true, and we should all try to verify as much as possible. But really, most things cannot be verified by you, personally. We do stand on the shoulders of giants, and you will not be able to verify centuries of scientific progress all on your own…

>you will not be able to verify centuries of scientific progress all on your own, from first principles. And this becomes even harder when you approach the softer parts of human knowledge such as economics

TBH most of economics is non-empirical ideology that's easy to debunk. More generally pseudo-science is rampant in "western science". That's another reason why this article is so ironic/islamophobic.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#222

Post by simonh »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #211
simonh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Arab nations decided to embrace science education and to industrialise their economies there's nothing the USA or Europe could, or would want to do to stop it. In fact the West would gleefully sell them the technical know how and equipment needed to do it. After all, they even did the same for Communist China.

Again, that happened in Egypt, and the US were very much happy to support a coup that undone everything gained by the Egyption revolution.

The US has no say in the internal politics of Egypt, or any Arab countries. The most the West can do is stand by watching in horror, wringing our hands. When we do get mired in it, as with Iraq, the limits of our actual ability to direct change becomes painfully apparent very quickly.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#223

Post by rsynnott »

pjc50 wrote: post #13

> "We will turn to this question later, but it is important to keep in mind that the decline of scientific activity is the rule, not the exception, of civilizations. While it is commonplace to assume that the scientific revolution and the progress of technology were inevitable, in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing. Like the Muslims, th…

> Japan went from insular agrarianism to a world power to collapse to continued scientific development through to the 21st century. As did much of the Far East. Why not the Middle east?

There are lots of theories, of course, but one I find interesting is that East Asia, in addition to never being colonized to the same extent as most places, emerged with national boundaries largely intact. The Middle East was under foreign control for, well, basically forever (Romans -> Ottomans -> mandates) and ended up with some pretty weird national boundaries. This encouraged a lot of strife.

There's also the oil theory; countries with huge natural resources seem to often struggle to develop normally.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#224

Post by WorkLobster »

jchb wrote: post #214
WorkLobster wrote: post #108

Something to remark on: Abdus Salam (the Pakistani Nobel Physics laureate mentioned near the top) and Steven Weinberg (quoted two sentences later as saying he hasn't read anything worthwhile from a physicist working in a Muslim country) collaborated together on the work that won them that same nobel prize (Glashow-Weinberg-Salam model of electroweak interaction).

Abdus Salam belonged to a school/sect of Islam that encourages open debate and promotes a scientific interpretation of the Quran. "Salam was an Ahmadi Muslim, who saw his religion as a fundamental part of his scientific work. ... In 1974, the Pakistan parliament made the Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan that declared Ahmadi to be non-Muslim. In protest, Salam left Pakistan for London." [0] [0] https:/…

Thanks for that extra info. I'm wondering if Weinberg's comment may in fact have been in support of Salam and his (possibly frustrated) experiences in Pakistan, rather than in contradiction of it. I think it would have been a fruitful avenue for the article to pursue.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#225

Post by g8oz »

Sporktacular wrote: post #85

Hard to put my finger on why this feels off. The title 'Arabic World' is strange, it's usually the "Arab world" unless they're referring to the regions where Arabic is spoken. It then gives statistics for Iran and Turkey, neither of which are significantly Arabic speaking countries, by which point you realise they're conflating ethnic-linguistic groups with the most region's most popular religion. So by the time it's…

Indeed the article starts off okay, but by the time it gets to the "Why Inquiry Failed in the Islamic World" section it rapidly turns into a dumpster fire.

The usual Western triumphalist brain farts in discussing the Islamic world are present:

* exaggerating the extent of separation of Church and State in Christianity.

* exaggerating the marginalization of non-Muslim minorities in medieval Muslim societies and framing it as unique while completely ignoring the treatment of non-Christian minorities in Christian societies in the same period (hint: not that great)

* implying that Muslim success are a fluke and it's failures reflect the true nature of Islam

You know in 1980 some blowhard could have surveyed the world's Catholic countries and noted how many of them were under authoritarian regimes. Said blowhard could have then wrote a long essay detailing the authoritarian history and nature of the Catholic Church, linking it to present political conditions. He could then contrast it with the nature of Protestantism and success of Protestant nations, explain away France as an outlier to due to lingering Huguenot influence.

"From Latin America to Spain & Portugal to the Philippines the unquestioning obedience to an unaccountable organization in spiritual matters has primed the Catholic world for predisposition to dictatorship" he would solemnly declare. "Contrast this with the marketplace of ideas that exists in the Protestant sphere and the idea of the worshiper having a direct relationship to God rather than an intermediating hierarchy".

You get my point.

From Wikipedia: "In science and philosophy, a just-so story is an untestable narrative explanation for a cultural practice, a biological trait, or behavior of humans or other animals."

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#227

Post by helen___keller »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #207
helen___keller wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientific organizations should not be issuing politically motivated or economically motivated statements How is this political or economic? It was purely public health. At the beginning of the pandemic, we thought we could trace and contain anybody with covid, thus ELIMINATING the virus. In this view, only healthcare workers need masks! If healthcare workers go without masks because every ordinary joe stocked up o…

> At the beginning of the pandemic, we thought we could trace and contain anybody with covid, thus ELIMINATING the virus. In this view, only healthcare workers need masks! If healthcare workers go without masks because every ordinary joe stocked up on masks and toilet paper, that means that healthcare workers get infected and become the spreaders, which is the opposite of "containing". Healthcare workers aren't getti…

If covid-19 were containable, then average people don't need masks. This isn't new territory: we've contained infectious diseases before, like SARS and ebola, and average Joe didn't need a mask then, either.

The CDC (and frankly every major government in the world) believed that covid-19 could be contained, and that no major outbreak would happen inside their country. This was incorrect. But if you hold this assumption, the CDC made the correct recommendation: N95 masks, properly worn, are the masks that protect against covid-19, and average people don't need them.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#228

Post by godelzilla »

simonh wrote: post #128
feralimal wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry - but you verify very little at school. It is an indoctrination system. IMO. Feel free to provide a specific example though, where you verified something at school.

I did give examples. My own children are going through high school here in the UK right now, they are 15 and 17 and both study physics and chemistry. They spend a significant portion of their science education performing experiments themselves in labs, that's exactly what lab work is for - to test the things you are being taught. Maybe it's different in the US, if you are American, but did you really not do experimen…

This is a narrow view of science. If they're taking one or two courses on physical science, what are their other classes? Do they examine the hypotheses and evidence in economics, history, etc.? Or is their course load just 10% physical science and 90% indoctrination?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#229

Post by godelzilla »

feralimal wrote: post #203
kalenx wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I verified a _lot_ at school. Simple stuff, sure, but it's the method which matters, not the thing you verify. I guess it may depend on the education systems, but seeing it as an 'indoctrination system' is just dishonest, given that by _definition_ you want to change the minds of the children. There is no --or so little-- spontaneous learning when you reach something more complicated than the basic action/immediate c…

To all those that are telling me how much verification is going on, I want to offer this very simple and basic question. How was water proven to you to be made up of 2 gases? Please don't refer me to youtube videos where a showman's pop is made, and we see some water droplets from the air condensate on the bottle. I want to see 2 gases being added together and making a liquid, that is water. We are apparently on a pl…

And how was the "law of supply and demand" verified? smh

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#230

Post by mrwnmonm »

simonh wrote: post #222
mrwnmonm wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, that happened in Egypt, and the US were very much happy to support a coup that undone everything gained by the Egyption revolution.

The US has no say in the internal politics of Egypt, or any Arab countries. The most the West can do is stand by watching in horror, wringing our hands. When we do get mired in it, as with Iraq, the limits of our actual ability to direct change becomes painfully apparent very quickly.

The west, the most powerful civilization in history, stand by watching in horror. Are you serious?

I don't have links or videos saved with me right now, but I am an Egyptian and followed all of what happened. I can get it if I wanted, but it will take time. But I think you can easily find it. Listen to professor Chomsky's lectures for example.

As far as I remember, this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLPYN82xHck) contains most of his opinions about it. But I would have to watch it again to be sure.

Even "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver" was joking about how Obama didn't admit the coup to keep giving them aid, but I also don't have the link of the episode here.

So I think it is obvious if you wanted to see it. But pick your opinion as you wish. It is a free world, right?

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