Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#211

Post by mrwnmonm » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:10 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #194

mrwnmonm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has that because the US accepts and supports that development. They won't allow that in the islamic countries.

If the Arab nations decided to embrace science education and to industrialise their economies there's nothing the USA or Europe could, or would want to do to stop it. In fact the West would gleefully sell them the technical know how and equipment needed to do it. After all, they even did the same for Communist China.

Again, that happened in Egypt, and the US were very much happy to support a coup that undone everything gained by the Egyption revolution.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#212

Post by agumonkey » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

It's about the social tissue. [0]

Western world is built upon modern science and technique, but the people are users, not thinkers.

Very few people understand science, even in tech. You have to play with physics first hand to consider how far we are and are far behind most humans are.

[0] research is funded by companies producing comfort devices or hidden infrastructure to sell to ignorant people. You cannot sell a physical principle or an engineering tool. So the society spreads itself from people with knowledge fueling the lives of a large mass of less knowledgeable.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#213

Post by feralimal » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

EForEndeavour wrote: post #125

feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

In a perfect world, any random person would have the ability to independently verify any scientific claim they cared to. But as you imply, our world is far from perfect. Many scientific facts require heavy training and/or expensive equipment to verify that most people just don't have. But the cool thing is that IF you did have the skills and gear (and patience, free time, assistants, etc.), you absolutely can image a…

Have you heard of the reproducibility/replication crisis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

"A 2016 poll of 1,500 scientists reported that 70% of them had failed to reproduce at least one other scientist's experiment (50% had failed to reproduce one of their own experiments). In 2009, 2% of scientists admitted to falsifying studies at least once and 14% admitted to personally knowing someone who did. Misconducts were reported more frequently by medical researchers than others."

Its not a joke.

Also, there is the question of funding in science. The government, the military and private corporations basically provide all the funding.

Do you think they fund things that are not in their interests? That good food would be more effective than medicine? Stuff like that?

If they fund a study that produces data that is contrary to the general narrative, do you think that will be published?

Do you think they will fund those studies that are against their narrative?

I love science, and the scientific method. But, not the science we have. It really is akin to religion - both are means of governance of the masses by controlling what is acceptable to think about.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#214

Post by jchb » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

WorkLobster wrote: post #108

Something to remark on: Abdus Salam (the Pakistani Nobel Physics laureate mentioned near the top) and Steven Weinberg (quoted two sentences later as saying he hasn't read anything worthwhile from a physicist working in a Muslim country) collaborated together on the work that won them that same nobel prize (Glashow-Weinberg-Salam model of electroweak interaction).

Abdus Salam belonged to a school/sect of Islam that encourages open debate and promotes a scientific interpretation of the Quran.

"Salam was an Ahmadi Muslim, who saw his religion as a fundamental part of his scientific work. ... In 1974, the Pakistan parliament made the Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan that declared Ahmadi to be non-Muslim. In protest, Salam left Pakistan for London." [0]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam#Religion

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#215

Post by connectsnk » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

webmobdev wrote: post #185

simonh wrote: post #90

The reason for this is that historically most civilizations, or phases of civilizations have lacked two things. One is the strong, persistent social institutions needed to maintain the momentum of scientific progress. The other is a solid socialised understanding of scientific methods. To maintain consistent scientific and engineering development you need both, and possibly a third in the from of the printing press,…

More than all of this - the key is political leaders. Visionary political leaders make or break their country or end civilizations. Both India and America are witnessing this currently with their respective elected right-wing "leaders" in Narendra Modi and Donald Trump. In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unan…

This seems like overstating the facts to support your own views. Can you please tell which recently enacted laws treat Astrology as a Science?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#216

Post by OminousWeapons » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #198

OminousWeapons wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They knew that masks worked from the get go and openly admitted that their statements about masks being ineffective were driven by fears of shortages, not lack of data. This is why their statements were effectively "masks don't work unless you are a healthcare worker". Scientific organizations should not be issuing politically motivated or economically motivated statements; they should be stating the truth to the bes…

> They knew that masks worked from the get go Can you point to the studies that they would have used to confirm this belief?

If you insist I'm happy to go hunting for studies, but let's remember that the CDC from the start was advocating that people reserve masks for healthcare workers. If they didn't believe that masks worked, why would they do that?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#217

Post by travisoneill1 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #196

pjc50 wrote: post #13

> "We will turn to this question later, but it is important to keep in mind that the decline of scientific activity is the rule, not the exception, of civilizations. While it is commonplace to assume that the scientific revolution and the progress of technology were inevitable, in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing. Like the Muslims, th…

>Why not the Middle East? Well, when your region of the world has been torn asunder by everything, including colonial powers, fascist reactionaries and nationalists, liberal market economies, and international communism; the only remaining cultural artifact that you can call your own is religion. If you want to unify the Middle East, you have to do so under the guise of religion, and in practice that means conservati…

The vast majority of emigrants from the middle east are poor migrants to Europe, not educated scientists.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#218

Post by nemothekid » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

OminousWeapons wrote: post #207

helen___keller wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientific organizations should not be issuing politically motivated or economically motivated statements How is this political or economic? It was purely public health. At the beginning of the pandemic, we thought we could trace and contain anybody with covid, thus ELIMINATING the virus. In this view, only healthcare workers need masks! If healthcare workers go without masks because every ordinary joe stocked up o…

> At the beginning of the pandemic, we thought we could trace and contain anybody with covid, thus ELIMINATING the virus. In this view, only healthcare workers need masks! If healthcare workers go without masks because every ordinary joe stocked up on masks and toilet paper, that means that healthcare workers get infected and become the spreaders, which is the opposite of "containing". Healthcare workers aren't getti…

We are now inching towards the political reality of the situation, but that is essentially what the CDC and various hospitals tried to do.

New York went to the federal government to get masks and was told to pound sand. They then ordered them from Canada and were once again impeded by the federal government[1]. So now you are in a situation where your the hospital supply chain is now gone, and you are forced to buy masks for medical workers in the marketplace, and you are now facing the real possibility that the general public may buy up all the masks before they can contain and eliminate the virus.

The CDC may have been acting in it's own best interest in the face of a federal branch who refused to believe that the virus was a big issue. If the CDC truly believed they had time to contain and eliminate the virus, I can see how telling people to not stock up on masks may have been a good idea at the time.

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fbi-redirects...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#219

Post by frockington1 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #164

solarengineer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people obsess over the fatality rate to dismiss the pandemic, but ignore the long term impairment of many of those who survive? Second, why not learn from the Far East and adopt a mask wearing, social distancing culture and prepare and lockdown?

Because there's going to be long-term harmful effects of the lockdowns too, that will be worse the longer they go on for. The real question is, why do people ignore that while making such a big deal of the long-term effects of the virus on survivors?

One is easier to grasp. Someone coughing the rest of their life is easier to visually see than someone fresh out of college who is now getting a job as a delivery driver and may never recover economically.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#220

Post by ginko » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

mrwnmonm wrote: post #211

simonh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Arab nations decided to embrace science education and to industrialise their economies there's nothing the USA or Europe could, or would want to do to stop it. In fact the West would gleefully sell them the technical know how and equipment needed to do it. After all, they even did the same for Communist China.

Again, that happened in Egypt, and the US were very much happy to support a coup that undone everything gained by the Egyption revolution.

Why do you believe the US supported the 2013 coup?