Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#111

Post by mrwnmonm » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #81

mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

Israel has good universities and has research output comparable to European/NA countries. The author is also including in Contemporary Islam, SEA countries like Malaysia. He also discusses Pakistan and ancient Indian civilizations as separate entities, which have geographical overlap, because Pakistan (and Bangladesh) is far behind India in terms of research productivity.

Israel has that because the US accepts and supports that development. They won't allow that in the islamic countries.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#112

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #76

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

[deleted]

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#113

Post by Ma8ee » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #76

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

I think you can do some basic math yourself and calculate yourself how many deaths that will be in the US if say 70% of the population gets it. And then we haven’t even taken into account that the fatality rate would be much higher without proper hospital care for all that need it because all the hospitals are overwhelmed and there ain’t any ICU left.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#114

Post by TeaDrunk » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #76

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

Under 0.35% which is several times greater than the next comparable (the flu), and greater for more than 30% of the population due to age and pre-existing condition. Very few people dont have a personal stake in keeping the people they love alive (parents, spouses, children, siblings, friends, lovers, etc.)

The panic makes more sense if you consider the overwhelming majority of people are looking not just at their own age and pre existing condition but also realizing the people who enrich their lives are also at risk.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#115

Post by mrwnmonm » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

chewz wrote: post #100

mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

> I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it... Yeh, that sums up the the article pretty well

You cutting the last part of the sentence sums up a lot too.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#116

Post by wrnr » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

I just love facts like this: Although Spain is hardly an intellectual superpower, it translates more books in a single year than the entire Arab world has in the past thousand years.

The links to the UN report seems to check out, but on the other hand I've heart that publishing is not a very lucrative business in Arabia and most translations are fan translations

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#117

Post by 29athrowaway » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

grahoho wrote: post #87

29athrowaway wrote: post #71

The Islamic Golden Age is the true cause behind the European Reinassance. 1) Introduction of paper. 2) Latin translations of the 12th century from Toledo and Sicily, former Islamic territories. 3) Higher education (Madrasas -> Universities) 4) Philosophical reforms of the church that made science legal (Averroism -> Scholasticism), paving the way to Secularism.

I'd say the invention of the printing press had a far more profound influence.

The printing press becomes a practical invention only once:

1) You have something to print on

2) You have content worth printing

The introduction of paper to Europe and the Latin translations in Toledo and Sicily (cities in former Islamic territories) are the answer to 1 and 2.

Paper is cheap, scalable, durable and portable. Pre-paper technology such as papyrus, parchments, tablets and carvings have issues in those regards.

Greek literature from Archimedes, Aristotle, Apollonius, Euclid, Diocles, Galen, Hippocrates, Ptolomy, and many others, was reintroduced to the West through those translations.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#118

Post by paganel » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #76

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

Not sure about the United States but in my parts of the world (Eastern Europe) it has also transformed into a social- and political-differentiating issue, i.e. people of a certain social status and of certain political views tend to over-emphasise the seriousness of the virus and to paint the other side in all sorts of unflattering colours because, supposedly, this latter side doesn't take the virus as serious as they do.

I happen to share the social- and political-views of the first part of people I talked about, but I've started to very largely diverge when it came to how the virus should be handled. In late January - early February this year I certainly thought that the fatality rate would be around 3-4% (especially after the first images coming out of Wuhan), but as the disaster in Northern Italy and then Spain was unfolding and we were starting to learn more about it I started to think that that number would be more close to 1-2%.

Most of the summer I thought that the fatality rate would be 1%, and then in early August I saw a recent study carried out in Sweden bringing that number down to 0.4%-0.6%. In the last couple of weeks I've started seeing even lower numbers (between 0.3% - 0.4%), which, if I'm not mistaken, would make this virus 3 or 4 times more deadly compared to the normal flu (which afaik has a 0.1% death rate) which is not great, but which is also not catastrophic.

Now, I've tried having this exact conversation with a couple of my friends just yesterday and it did not go well at all, they were accusing me of being anti-mask and of not taking the virus seriously enough. Apparently the bare numbers don't work even on educated people.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#119

Post by kalenx » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

feralimal wrote: post #97

simonh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flat out not true, every child that studies science in high school, all the way through to degree level in University personally goes through all the logical chains of thought, experimentation and verification of the ideas and principles they learn. We read how Newton derived the laws of motion and measure the periods of swinging weights hanging on strings, we measure the pressure of a gas as it varies with c…

Sorry - but you verify very little at school. It is an indoctrination system. IMO. Feel free to provide a specific example though, where you verified something at school.

I verified a _lot_ at school. Simple stuff, sure, but it's the method which matters, not the thing you verify. I guess it may depend on the education systems, but seeing it as an 'indoctrination system' is just dishonest, given that by _definition_ you want to change the minds of the children. There is no --or so little-- spontaneous learning when you reach something more complicated than the basic action/immediate consequence a toddler uses.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#120

Post by jk700 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #73

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

But was it medical science when the CDC advised people, very strongly, to not wear masks or that the virus coming out of Wuhan was of no concern to everyday Americans? How are people supposed to believe in capital 'S' science when our scientific institutions make claims based on their guts instead of just admitting they don't know (which is the only acceptable scientific answer when you can't back up a claim with rep…

CDC and healthcare in general are not scientific institutions.