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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#101

Post by rob74 »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #86
mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

I would guess that Islam have no issues with good science, right? In my opinion, blaming religion for any decline of science is completely accepted even if there's no direct correlation between both, which is very bad because it's creates a false believe that religious people aren't educated.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being religious, I think the major problem is fundamentalism: if you consider your Holy Book (be it the Koran, the Bible or whatever else), or even more commonly a narrow interpretation of it, as the single source of truth and condemn all who deviate from it, that's a recipe for stagnation. That happened in Europe in the Middle Ages, and it's happening in the Arabic world now.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#102

Post by inglor_cz »

konjin wrote: post #45
ruricolist wrote: post #15

Mongols.

A civilization stops scientific activity when you kill its scientists and burn its libraries. Who would have thought? How much science would get done in the US if everyone in the 50 largest cities is killed or enslaved and the cities are razed?

Well, it is not as if other regions of the world, including Europe, did not have their own massive disasters.

Vikings, Mongol attacks, Turkish attacks, the 30 Year War...

An interesting question why was Baghdad so unique that its loss led to disaster. Could it be that the rest of the Muslim world was, by this point in time, not very interested in science?

European science survived such events probably because of its polycentricity. There was no single point of failure.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#103

Post by mc32 »

Yetanfou wrote: post #56
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Or the sudden appearance of a multitude of 'genders', the statement than there is no such thing as biological sex, the denial of the existence of facts which are now to be seen as interpretations and many more of these results of the introduction of 'critical theory' [1,2] in academia. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory#In_academia

People are downvoting you but you bring up a point that I see in some fringes. Basically the assertion is that “Science is a sign of white privilege”.

I mean I guess if from a certain perspective you see things and ignore the science going on in Japan, China and other places you might somehow twist interpretation to say that, but that assertion is very problematic when at the SAME TIME we want to get more women and minorities into STEM. This view does this goal a disservice.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#104

Post by dariusj18 »

Yetanfou wrote: post #56
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Or the sudden appearance of a multitude of 'genders', the statement than there is no such thing as biological sex, the denial of the existence of facts which are now to be seen as interpretations and many more of these results of the introduction of 'critical theory' [1,2] in academia. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory#In_academia

Gender studies is a very new thing, so I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Though, I think what most gender researchers will agree on is there are more than two genders, and more variation in sex than a simplistic view of biology would make one think.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#106

Post by mrwnmonm »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #86
mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

I would guess that Islam have no issues with good science, right? In my opinion, blaming religion for any decline of science is completely accepted even if there's no direct correlation between both, which is very bad because it's creates a false believe that religious people aren't educated.

It depends on what do you mean by Islam.

If you mean that some muslims won't accept some scientific results because of their islamic beliefs, then you are very much correct.

I would even say that some Quranic verses don't sound scientific at all, but it is somehow complex to judge it, since it is not intended to be a science book.

Anyway, this is far from my point. My point is the US wants the situation to be like that, period.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#107

Post by solarengineer »

nradov wrote: post #76
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

Why do people obsess over the fatality rate to dismiss the pandemic, but ignore the long term impairment of many of those who survive?

Second, why not learn from the Far East and adopt a mask wearing, social distancing culture and prepare and lockdown?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#108

Post by WorkLobster »

Something to remark on: Abdus Salam (the Pakistani Nobel Physics laureate mentioned near the top) and Steven Weinberg (quoted two sentences later as saying he hasn't read anything worthwhile from a physicist working in a Muslim country) collaborated together on the work that won them that same nobel prize (Glashow-Weinberg-Salam model of electroweak interaction).

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#109

Post by nradov »

kalenx wrote: post #98
nradov wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

It's not disappointing to see humans caring for others. There's a difference between "panicking over the disease" and wanting our elder people (for which the IFR is way over 0.35%) to be safe. Notwithstanding the fact that this 0.35% cannot possibly be achieved if the health system collapses.

If "we" wanted our elder people to be safe we would take steps to actively protect them. So far that isn't happening, which is very disappointing. Look how New York governor Cuomo sent COVID-19 patients to nursing homes even though he knew it was risky. That caused the worst cluster of deaths in the US so far.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#110

Post by tonyedgecombe »

w0utert wrote: post #78
feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

I don't agree with your final conclusion, but I upvoted this regardless, because I think it is an interesting perspective that is worthwhile to philosophize on. If the Covid-19 situation taught me anything, it would be that it's apparently very, very easy to convince the vast majority of the population they need behave, think and feel in some way, based on 'facts' and figures that are unproven, incomplete, out-of-con…

If the Covid-19 situation taught me anything, it would be that it's apparently very, very easy to convince the vast majority of the population they need behave, think and feel in some way, based on 'facts' and figures that are unproven, incomplete, out-of-context, or based on 'science' that is not or only barely amenable to empirical verification.

That's not the impression I've got watching it all unfold in the UK. Sure there were a few charlatans at the extremes but the bulk of the messaging has been open about the fact there is a lot we don't know.

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