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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

thenewatlantis.com

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#61

Post by Fezzik »

feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

Or they are, they may just not be aware of it - the fact that billions of people have had MMR vaccines and we, as a species, have nearly eradicated the measles, mumps, and rubella in a great scientific experiment is downright awe inspiring. This is nothing like a religion and this type of backwards thinking is what holds us, as a species back. And, either way, it doesn’t matter - every scientific practice does not need to be repeated down to the minutia by every human being to be effective. I imagine most people taking HIV/AIDs suppressants have never looked through an electron microscope to verify exactly how they work, but that has nothing to do with anything.

Your analogy is, frankly, awful and way off the mark.

Edit, to add an example: a patient listening to a doctor who has set many broken bones about how the doctor is going to set that particular patient’s bones is nothing like a religious adherent listening to a priest who has never spoken to god about what god says and expects of the adherent... that’s just absurd.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#62

Post by mrwnmonm »

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway.

Take the first paragraph

> Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. President Obama, for instance, in his June 4, 2009 speech in Cairo, praised Muslims for their historical scientific and intellectual contributions to civilization.

So first it says Contemporary "Islam" is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project.

Then it says Golden Age of "Arabic" science.

Funny distinction. If you gonna use 'Arabic', use it everywhere.

Also another funny thing that the "Idealistic" president, Obama, who they say praised muslims for their historical scientific and intellectual contributions to civilization, had no problem working with dictators who are the main reason for the decline of scientific study in the region. And also had no problem supporting Al Sisi coup after the Egyptian revolution.

Edit: Adding that the Obama administration didn't want to admit it is a coup to be able to keep giving aid to the Egyptian military, which is prevented by the American constitution in case of a coup. Professor Chomsky always said that the US won't allow true democracy in the middle east. He even had a lecture in 2011 just after the revolution started predicting exactly what happened.

So the US uses its power to keep the situation as it is, then the very much honest westerners come and say that we are backward in scientific study. Thanks guys. You are very wise and honest.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#63

Post by blackbear_ »

feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

You have a fair point^, but instead of attacking science in particular you should attack societies in general. Can you trust the food you buy at the supermarket or at the restaurant is not poisonous? That your doctor or partner isn't going to kill you in your sleep? That policemen will not shoot you? That drivers won't run you over?

It's not about science. Society is impossible without trust.

^ except that scientists do check each other's work and occasionally find mistakes. Scientific progress is real and has provided concrete and undeniable improvements to people's lives, and this should give credibility to science as a whole. But I see your point, outsiders cannot understand nor verify science without the proper training and equipment.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#64

Post by [deleted] »

feralimal wrote: post #50
gomox wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science and religion are belief systems and therefore share some commonalities but the radical difference is that science is based on testable hypothesis, whereas religion is just religion. To say they are "absolutely equivalent" is a massive stretch.

Do you personally test any scientific claims? Or do you personally take them on faith?

[deleted]

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#65

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #14
petre wrote: post #12

Do you know where the words algorithm , algebra , arithmetic come from? "Born into a Persian family in Khuwarizm (present-day Xorazm Province, Uzbekistan), Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi (also known by the Latin form of his name, Algoritmi, circa 780–850 AD, 164–236 AH) was a Muslim mathematician, astronomer, and geographer, and a scholar in the famed House of Wisdom in Baghdad. Al-Khwarazmi wrote Kitab al-Jabr wa-l-…

This is actually mentioned in the article.

[deleted]

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#66

Post by ben509 »

feralimal wrote: post #50
gomox wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science and religion are belief systems and therefore share some commonalities but the radical difference is that science is based on testable hypothesis, whereas religion is just religion. To say they are "absolutely equivalent" is a massive stretch.

Do you personally test any scientific claims? Or do you personally take them on faith?

Like any student, I did basic chemistry and physics and we tested various claims in the lab.

Nobody personally tests all claims, even professional scientists have to accept some prior claims until they have some reason to believe they're incorrect.

Trust is necessary for science to extend beyond the efforts of an individual, but trust isn't the same thing as faith.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#67

Post by simonklitj »

Yetanfou wrote: post #56
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Or the sudden appearance of a multitude of 'genders', the statement than there is no such thing as biological sex, the denial of the existence of facts which are now to be seen as interpretations and many more of these results of the introduction of 'critical theory' [1,2] in academia. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory#In_academia

I think the common lingo is that gender is what you identify as, and sex is what you biologically are (subject to change through sex-change operations).

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#68

Post by galangalalgol »

xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

The battle/alliance between science and religion swaps from one to the other regularly. We remember the alliance ending and the battles starting around people like Darwin and Galileo. I suspect this is more to do with religion, and science also, being used by people who want power. Any time you here someone talking about believing the science or proving something with a holy book, ignore them. Real science needs no belief, and real faith needs no proof.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#70

Post by netcan »

pjc50 wrote: post #13

> "We will turn to this question later, but it is important to keep in mind that the decline of scientific activity is the rule, not the exception, of civilizations. While it is commonplace to assume that the scientific revolution and the progress of technology were inevitable, in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing. Like the Muslims, th…

I paused at that paragraph as well.

It is very possible that the achievements of modernity have changed the game. That said, the game was (is?) rise and fall. Rising civilizations leave a heritage to be mined, so there is an overall direction of rise... but every one of the many scientifically advancing cultures in history has declined. It would be prudent to expect the same for ours.

That said, modernity has almost certainly changed at least some of the rules. Even the term "The West" has become complicated. Our civilization is now essentially global. A scientific invention in France immediately arrives in Seoul. A joke told in Houston is heard in lagos. A book popular here is likely popular there.

The practical link between Rio De Janeiro and Tokyo is stronger now than Baghdad and Casablanca then.

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