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Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

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Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#711
post #433
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire topic was discussed during the oral arguments. Google can not prove these adverse effects that they continue to claim will happen. They have had 6 years to do so and yet they can not state a single instance.

Because all of the copyright Trolls are waiting for the court to rule API's are copyrightable. Although it would be HILARIOUS if Amazon Sues Oracle on day one after the ruling for their copying of the S3 API. That said there are ALL KINDS of interop code that is at risk with the ruling, only people with their heads in the sand and do not understand the industry at all believe that nothing negative will come about if…

>Because all of the copyright Trolls are waiting for the court to rule API's are copyrightable.

This isn't how the courts work and it's sad that Google has pushed this nonsense for the past 6 years.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's telling that neither Biden nor Harris was willing to rule out court-packing at the presidential debates, and at this point I think they're right to leave it on the table! The correct answer to that question was obviously, "Congress makes the laws, including ones about the number of SC justices, not the President."

“But if you were the president, and a law to add justices came across your desk, would you veto it?”

Plus the fact that Biden just this week claimed to be the head of the Democratic party.

Hard to make that claim if you're not helping set policy.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you very much can copy Chapter 1: Introducing the main character .. Chapter 6: Introducing side character Chapter 7: Arrival at the main story place .. Chapter 17: The final chapter In fact there are whole classifications of literature that identify basic storylines, tropes, structure etc. . The reason you couldn't copy the harry potter chapter titles exactly is because they contain specific titles, e.g. "the…

Picking a random bit of the API, ContainerOrderFocusTraversalPolicy::getImplicitDownCycleTraversal feels to me more like "the boy who lived", rather than "Introducing Side Character" -- I don't think anyone could reasonably claim you would end up at remotely the same thing, unless you were word-for-word copying thousands of lines of API.

I mean, I see your point, but you kind of have to to achieve the intended purpose.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone could also argue your analogy with a cookbook is wrong, because if we talk about headers and APIs, it's more like Oracle claiming that their stove's interface to the pot is copyrightable. How is heat transferred to the pot? From the stove to the pot, this is the API, and how it's implemented doesn't matter. Oracle claims that this specific thing, that you turn on any button and make it heat up is copyrightabl…

Tortured analogies like this is why the whole software industry is going to be making a surprised pikachu face when Oracle wins (see my comment a day or two ago on the prior story for substantially similar sentiment). Heat transfer to a pot is not an API, not even remotely close. It's a physical fact that has been observed since the stone age. The Java API is huge. It's not a mere physical fact, nor even a collection…

>From a plain reading of copyright law it's obvious APIs far smaller and simpler than Java should fall under copyright.

You do realize that copyrighting APIs is functionally useless? There are ways of copying APIs that do not violate copyright. Reinvention is still possible precisely because of things like javadoc or the fact that Oracle doesn't have copyright ownership of code that uses the Java API. There is an endless list of loopholes that this protection is useless.

>The idea APIs don't is a convenient consensus-quo for the software industry that benefits competition and should probably be preserved, although there is the counterbalancing factor that the non-protectability of APIs probably has invisible side effects we can't see (e.g. under-investment in API design).

It has more to do with the fact that we already have patent law that was explicitly created for cases like these. Two inventors build the exact same thing. The first inventor should have the rights to the invention.

>But the Supreme Court won't or shouldn't care about any of that because it's a political debate. The question before them is about what the current law says, and on that, Oracle probably have a point.

Can you point me to software patents that protect the Java API?

>Also, it's going to be even more fashionable to hate on Oracle if they do win, but the current situation has always been legally fragile.

Clean room designs are the status quo in the hardware world. There is zero fragility. It's done all the time.

>Sooner or later someone would have observed the apparent skew between the software industry's approach to copyright and what the law really says.

They already did so to the point that patents have existed before copyright.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#715
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As applied to Java, individual method signatures like min and max might not be copyrightable, but someone had to go in and organize those individual methods into classes, and organize those classes into packages. An API doesn't require an implementation and copyright is handed out automatically. Could I then write and run a generator that just starts spitting out endless variations of possible APIs (combinations of…

No, that doesn't feature sufficient creativity.

That's patent law. Copyright law is automatic and will always be granted which is why it's absolutely stupid to add patent law features to copyright.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#716
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'd publish a cookbook with the same chapters and recipe names as a different cookbook, but every recipe my own creation from scratch; I wouldn't consider that copyright infringement.

Can you even create a recipe from scratch after you've learned the recipe from somebody else, will it not always be a derivative work at best, and a copy at worst? Sure, you can add or remove an egg, or change the order or when to add salt or pepper, but an omelette is an omelette.

No. Copyright only protects your works from copying. It doesn't protect against reinvention which is why we have patents.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#717

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

> Corona Data Systems, Eagle Computer, and Handwell Corporation, were successfully sued by IBM for copyright infringement in 1984, and were forced to re-implement their BIOS in a way which did not infringe IBM's copyrights [1]. > To develop a legal BIOS, Phoenix used a clean room design [2]. I think there was some creative process in designing BIOS. There is no difference between binary and text format, it is just a…

>API documentation is certainly copyrightable, even text definition file. A lot of creative process goes to putting braces, spaces, commas, naming

Yes but it is useless. You can e.g. copyright an electronics schematic. People aren't allowed to copy it and sell it but they can build the device that is being described by the schematic and then they can create their own schematic based on the device they have created. That's why we have patents.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Baker opinion: "The conclusion to which we have come is, that blank account-books are not the subject of copyright; and that the mere copyright of Selden's book did not confer upon him the exclusive right to make and use account-books, ruled and arranged as designated by him and described and illustrated in said book." [1] I believe based on this reasoning, copying APIs or copying code is a distinction witho…

Are you saying code which calls library functions should not be copyrightable? The Baker opinion can of course be used as argument pro-Google. But it is also just an "opinion". Each case must be decided on its own. I believe there is a big difference between scale and structural complexity with the (inter-connected) Java API and some text-book examples of accounting layouts. At some point quantity becomes quality.

I believe he is saying, and I would tend to agree, that it does not matter if Google literally copy/pasted the Java header files or if they had merely copied the API (ie. the same structure, sequence and organization) in a different language; for example by creating a Go package having exactly the same package structure and providing the same functions as the Java standard library.

In both cases, they would have "copied" the API and both seem to me to be exactly the same case as in Baker/Selden.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#719
post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, going back to the max() function example: I believe, based on the way the courts are looking at it, that the parts that are essential to its function are the fact that it takes two numbers and returns the greater of the two, and perhaps also the fact that it is named "max". Its being placed into class named java.lang.Math, though, is not. That is a product of the way it is arranged, which is a matter of design, n…

> ts being placed into class named java.lang.Math, though, is not. That is a product of the way it is arranged, which is a matter of design, not of necessity. It's hard to imagine any particular reason why a function would need to have "java" in its name in order correctly calculate the maximum of two numbers. But if you want to be interoperable with programs that expect to be able to find the max of two numbers usin…

That 2014 opinion has a whole section explaining why the interoperability argument doesn't work here. I also summarized it a bit elsewhere in this thread.

To add more to that, the opinion spends a while talking about why the precedent in the ruling in favor of Activition over making unlicensed games for Sega consoles doesn't apply here, and that's helpful for understanding why arguments about interoperability aren't going well over in the courts. In short, the Court recognized a clear distinction between making things to run on someone else's platform, and making your own platform that is designed to be incredibly cosmetically similar to someone else's, but not actually interoperable with it.

Incidentally, I'm looking to that detail for hope. Most my anxiety around this case concerns its potential implications for the legal standing of projects like WINE. But those projects are unambiguously good faith efforts at interoperability. If the Court ultimately rules against Google, but bases that ruling on the opinion that Google's claims about interoperability were smoke and mirrors, then that would seem to imply that they are specifically ruling against what Google did, and not what open source projects are typically doing.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#720

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

> the cookbook itself becomes copyrightable. But what is discussed here is not the cookbook but just the table of contents. The actual recipes are different. Making another cookbook with chapter 1: salads, chapter 2: soups etc. is common practice. The question is how much detail you are allowed to copy in order to allow for interoperability. For instance, a dinner might call for the Oracle potato salad of Section 1.3…

>> the cookbook itself becomes copyrightable.

> But what is discussed here is not the cookbook but just the table of contents. The actual recipes are different.

We should be very cautious about trying to tackle the subject in this way. Illustration by analogy can be useful for explaining subtle concepts, but argument by analogy will only introduce more confusion.

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