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AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

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Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current model for interacting with an FPGA connected to a PC has it sitting on a peripheral card, on the other side of a PCIe bus. AFAIK there's no story for exposing higher level abstractions of these devices though the OS in a way that would allow them to be shared between different applications. How would you envision an "FPGA on board the CPU" differing from this? Would it still be a separate thing the way GP…

Intel has an fpga+xeon combo, but it's poorly designed and expensive.

I'm not fit to judge, but the 6138P with integrated Alter 10GX appears to connect to the main Xeon cores via a UPI2 link and dual PCIe x8 links. It exports an HSSI bus, whatever that is[1].

The thing is, I don't think AMD is going to have much of an advantage. Back when AMD64 was becoming a thing, a long time ago, there was a lot of excitement around HyperTransport (HTX), around an inter-processor bus that people could make interesting accelerators out of & connect fpgas with. It never... really went anywhere. It's still supposedly quite prevalent as the basis for AMD's modern Infinity Fabric, but AMD seems to have no interest, no energy to make Infinity Fabric or HyperTransport interesting to the world, anything beyond an implementation detail.

If AMD does want to start integrating FPGAs, they either need to go back 17 years & start pushing Infinity Fabric / HyperTransport, or they need some other plan to make the fpga useful. Perhaps CXL or CCIX or GenZ or just like they do now gobs of pcie is enough, is how an fpga can mesh with core complexes & peripherals, but wow AMD would be in a much better place to start integrating FPGAs if HTX has kept up steam.

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/12773/intel-shows-xeon-scalab...

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#32

5 years ago amd was a $2 stock and xilinx was a 50 dollar stock. Now amd is a 80 dollar stock and Xilinxis ~100 dollar stock. Xilinx market cap was 5x of amd. Even today xilinx generates more free cash than amd. Its kind of crazy how fast company values can change.

> Its kind of crazy how fast company values can change.

what makes you believe that is has anything to do with "values"? ;)

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#33

Going back to 2006, Xilinx was making FPGAs that would sit in an Opteron socket and speak HyperTransport to the other CPU(s). I never heard much more about that, but I can imagine it might've been popular with certain specialized workloads, in an era before GPU compute took off, or perhaps workloads that don't fit GPUs well. I wonder if those specialized applications might be a small but important market.

Governments were the consumers of that Opteron/FPGA hybrid product. It was an interesting idea but way too difficult to use for anything that would justify the cost. In practice, the FPGAs seemed to mostly be used to run crypto algorithms and codecs, which seems kind of disappointing. I vaguely recall some attempts at building ticker plants with them but I don’t know that it was ever actually used for that.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#34

This makes me feel a lot better in light of NVIDIA' recent ARM acquisition. I really don't see Intel in my future. Linux needs AMD.

Really hoping the ARM acquisition can transform Nvidia from the inside, make them a responsible & cooperative partner.

AMD seems to be doing well.

Intel is indeed faltering, yes. Especially with process technology. Given what they've got to work with in the process department, they've been building neat good stuff. Xe just launched & in a mobile form factor is quite competitive, no longer leaving AMD APUs to dominate. These same mobile parts have far higher integration than anything AMD can offer, with dual USB4/TB4 ports good for 2 x 40Gbps. Intel has a range of neat things few others have. Intel has a pretty competent wifi that integrates nicely. Their new Tremot Atom cores are a great value, really nice light-weight cores, & scale up to 24 cores on expensive but interesting cellular radio platforms. Xeon-D is a wonderful connectivity platform that there is not much competition for. Alas Intel cancelled OmniPath, which was a brilliant thing to integrate & give away on server CPUs almost for free (~$100 on a >> $1000 chip). And alas the process tech really hampers big server cores, but intel has been getting more competitive.

At this point, Linux need competition. Nvidia thus-far has never played well, Linux4Tegra and CUDA are walled gardens & driver support is otherwise awful, still no good way to run Wayland. AMD is doing great & Linux support is very high. But we kind of need Intel to keep AMD from growing lethargic & un-competitive, from exploiting their new market position as, well, better.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#35
Imagine a reconfigurable GPU.

How many f8, f16, f32, f64 units you want now? Do you need some special instructions like add+multiply, or some bit permutation? You can add some.

There's no need to reconfigure it very fast, or per VM; not having to reboot the hypervisor OS would be enough. But it e.g. would allow to change the type of instances a particular server can offer, adjust to demand, and so overprovision less.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#36
I think this is a terrible idea for the future of technology. AMD would not be existentially dependent on the FPGA market and the stack is so important to cutting-edge tech that it demands focused stewardship. It's clear something needs to change in FPGA land. Xilinx and Intel both produce abhorrent FPGA software causing project delays and cancellations of cutting-edge technology dependent on their devices. Xilinx probably needs an activist investor to force their software to move past the time in history when Java was something you put on your resume. Maybe AMD can be that, but I doubt it and an acquisition by AMD would likely result in the same abandonment we see from Intel towards Altera.

Xilinx had an opportunity to be in the position NVidia is in today and it was not obvious in 2005 who was going to win the high performance computing (HPC) market because the inherent advantages that FPGAs had and still have today for high speed I/O, RAM throughput, and hard timing requirements. NVidia's CUDA, on the other hand, produces generally painlessly portable results, with easy improvement on new devices. They have essentially won in HPC application development.

Fundamentally the FPGA companies need to adopt an open-source, cloud-first ethos towards their stacks and especially be focused on making agile low-level application development. Making a counter control some LEDs should be a 10 second process. Changing the clock speed should be a 1 seconds process. Adding a button to reset the counter should be a 1 second process. None of this is true. Good luck getting this to work within one day as a newbie on a vanilla machine. Good luck even installing Vivado and compiling any bitstream in one day (thank God they have AWS images -- good luck getting that going within 2 hours). Good luck coordinating with source control and generally merging work with a team.

There was some hope when Intel bought Altera that the compilers engineering expertise might help improve virtual CPU stacks, or at least some investment in the usability of their software tools might have been thought of as a competitive advantage, but all the FPGA vendors have seriously dropped the ball on improving the eco-system with usable software. FPGA software is so bad that you have to justify a 6 month development cycle for something that should probably take a few days if things were even remotely sane. It's hard to enumerate all the examples of broken-ness but small changes end up taking a long time to re-build, things like inverting your reset in a module and then waiting two hours for trivial changes to resynthesize and place-and-route. (edit, two hours later the trivial reset polarity inversion failed timing, because it also required me to add synchronization stages to send the inverted reset signal across clock domains, shouldn't be doing this at night).

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#37
post #29

5 years ago amd was a $2 stock and xilinx was a 50 dollar stock. Now amd is a 80 dollar stock and Xilinxis ~100 dollar stock. Xilinx market cap was 5x of amd. Even today xilinx generates more free cash than amd. Its kind of crazy how fast company values can change.

It's also weird because shareholders want stocks to grow indefinitely at an exponential rate, whereas there are a whole lot of companies like Xilinx that don't really need to grow all that much beyond just scaling to a number of gates that is useful to today's industry. Or Dropbox, which I really don't want them doing anything innovative except syncing my directories between machines until the end of time.

Mature and stable companies tend to pay dividends, and investing in them is a fine thing to do for risk averse investors or portfolios.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#38
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current model for interacting with an FPGA connected to a PC has it sitting on a peripheral card, on the other side of a PCIe bus. AFAIK there's no story for exposing higher level abstractions of these devices though the OS in a way that would allow them to be shared between different applications. How would you envision an "FPGA on board the CPU" differing from this? Would it still be a separate thing the way GP…

What I want is a small FPGA that is really close to each CPU core. I want to be able to send a query to it with about the same minimum latency as an L1 hit. Basically, I want it to implement what are essentially custom CPU instructions. Rather than implementing your full algorithm on a big FPGA over a PCIe link, you should be able to implement just the few custom specialized instructions that regular CPU is missing,…

How would OSs manage this security and process wise? I imagine its impossible to program an fpga fast enough to have it switch config for each process that wants it.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#39
This could work if AMD invested a ton in software like Intel has with OneAPI.

But, if AMD really wants to get into a new market, it could try going into mobile. The 4000-series CPUs are great laptops CPUs which could go further down the scale, and over a couple generations maybe in phones too. Unlikely or stupid idea (RIP Broxton)? Still worth a shot, I feel.

Re: AMD Is in Advanced Talks to Buy Xilinx

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current model for interacting with an FPGA connected to a PC has it sitting on a peripheral card, on the other side of a PCIe bus. AFAIK there's no story for exposing higher level abstractions of these devices though the OS in a way that would allow them to be shared between different applications. How would you envision an "FPGA on board the CPU" differing from this? Would it still be a separate thing the way GP…

What I want is a small FPGA that is really close to each CPU core. I want to be able to send a query to it with about the same minimum latency as an L1 hit. Basically, I want it to implement what are essentially custom CPU instructions. Rather than implementing your full algorithm on a big FPGA over a PCIe link, you should be able to implement just the few custom specialized instructions that regular CPU is missing,…

Sounds kinda like microcode
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