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Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

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Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#601
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot reconcile this sort of argument with the Baker v. Selden precedent. Contemporary judges, including on the Supreme Court, aren't interested in reconciling Oracle's argument with Baker v. Selden; there's no love for Baker. Courts may pay lip service to the notion that ideas can't be copyrighted, but the prospect of ruling as a matter of law that specific, concrete categories of works are categorically not co…

I really struggle to see what was "brilliant" about Judge Alsup's opinion. After 30 pages of very careful analysis of the case law, his actual holding (at p. 35) simply begs the question. He states: > Much of Oracle’s evidence at trial went to show that the design of methods in an API was a creative endeavor. Of course, that is true. Inventing a new method to deliver a new output can be creative, even inventive, incl…

> This mixes up the functional aspects of designing methods with the stylistic aspects of API design.

I think the disagreement here is as a frequent API author I don't see any stylistic aspect in the design of API code. API code as an artifact itself is purely functional. This distinction becomes important because of the case precedent at hand.

Prior to creating any API, one must have a specification of the system the API is meant to model and control. If one skips writing the specification, that doesn't mean there isn't one, it's just largely in the brain of the implementer and possibly underspecified or inconsistent in spots. Every unit of API code therefore has an implied specification, whether or not a documented, written specification exists.

The API code is simply a mechanical translation of the specification into machine readable form. Parameter names, method names, those do not matter to the technical function of the system they are there solely to enhance use. The specification is possibly a patentable invention. A book describing the specification to a human audience is possibly a copyrightable work.

API code is neither of those things, rather it is an embodied practice of interacting with that specification in a machine-readable form and therefore IMO [IANAL] not eligible for copyright under Baker.

> For example, how to structure groups of functions for dealing with various kinds of buffers. Insofar as those stylistic decisions are expressed in literal code, that's the domain of copyright.

These structures are not inherent to the function of the API code, except incidentally due to implementation details. The purpose of these structures is to model the system being interacted with.

I think part of the misunderstanding here is the contemporary expectation that all code is self-documenting. Which is an admirable goal, but it obscures some important nuances about what an API as opposed to an API contract actually is.

API code, particularly old or highly specialized API code, has a TON of undocumented behavior, quirks, etc that exist. Where do they exist? Besides in the heads (optimistically) of the implementers, it also exists in the specification the API code together with its implementation translate.

> But what if you design the API by writing the declarations first, and filling in the methods afterwards?

Presumably it's the human and not the computer writing the API code so the human has some notion of what the API code is representing. The act of writing this code is translation. Just because the original is not always captured does not mean that it doesn't exist. It must exist for there to be API code in the first place.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#602
Breyer might be my new hero:

In fact, a couple of justices did a better job articulating Google's position than Google's own lawyer.

"It's like the QWERTY keyboard," Breyer said in a question to Oracle's lawyer. "You didn't have to have a QWERTY keyboard on typewriters in the beginning. But my God, if you let somebody have a copyright on that now, they would control all typewriters, which really has nothing to do with copyright"

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#603

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

API itself is already a specific compilation (of function signatures). But it's still meta information, not actual information on the implementation of the functionality. Making API copyrightable is absurd and harmful, same as it's absurd to copyright abstract concepts.

European judges got that right.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same but I think the problem is tech people don't buy Oracle products on purpose, suits do that.

That's probably true. Honestly, companies shouldn't be worried about the FANG's, because they will create alliances and largely refrain from suing one another. It's the never-ending, death-by-a-thousand-cuts onslaught from trolls that will murder small/medium outfits. The east texas troll court is going to have a boom like it was 1840s California just to support all the litigation in our near future -- if this passes…

The East Texas troll court is focused on patent cases, and presumably won’t be the venue of choice for copyright law trolling. I’m sure that venue already exists.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to read on this further. Thanks for the references. > The Baker precedent says that the parts of a design that are strictly essential to its function are not copyrightable. Since all parts of the API code are strictly essential to its function than they are not copyrightable, right? The parts that are not essential to its function lie in the behavior of the system in question instead of the API code, this b…

So, going back to the max() function example: I believe, based on the way the courts are looking at it, that the parts that are essential to its function are the fact that it takes two numbers and returns the greater of the two, and perhaps also the fact that it is named "max". Its being placed into class named java.lang.Math, though, is not. That is a product of the way it is arranged, which is a matter of design, n…

> Its being placed into class named java.lang.Math, though, is not. That is a product of the way it is arranged, which is a matter of design, not of necessity. It's hard to imagine any particular reason why a function would need to have "java" in its name in order correctly calculate the maximum of two numbers.

> The crux of the case, then, is the copyrightability of those design decisions about how the API members are arranged. The set of specific functions it performs is, as per Baker not the focus of the argument.

To me, many of the analogies being bandied about don't really capture the distinction you're making. The football playbook for example. Rather than considering the playbook as a description of the game, and thus thinking of what Google did as analogous to copying the playbook, it seems to me that what Google did is analogous to copying the playbook's legend that describes the meaning of the Xs, Os, and arrows that comprise the playbook diagrams, as well as the playbook's table of contents, but none of the actual play diagrams.

To alter the metaphor a bit, Let's say that an author swipes the table of contents for the Lord of the Rings, and nothing else, and writes their own story that conforms to the LotR plot only to the extent that the ToC requires it. Characters and location names that appear in the ToC are used, but nothing else about them is the same. The page numbers don't even have to match as the new work is half the length. We also omit a few things from the ToC, like the several afterwords and appendixes, as well as anything that mentions Tolkien by name. Finally, the work itself isn't called "The Lord of the Rings", but "Doom of Shadows", or whatever.

The work isn't a parody or a satire, nothing is the same except to the extent necessary to make the identical ToC work (in terms of the name, order, and organization of the chapters).

To me, this is a good analogy. The two works are "compatible" in the sense that the ToC is an interface like an API, the ToC and the organization of the book were obviously copied verbatim, but nothing else was.

In this analogy (which presupposes that there are other works that use the ToC as an API), the same sort of questions from this case can be asked: 1. Is the ToC copyrightable per se (since there is obviously some creativity in naming, ordering, and grouping the chapters, but the ToC has slo), and 2. even if it is, is copying it to serve as the outline of a new work fair use?

Does the answer change if the book isn't fiction, eg. a cookbook (dish categories and recipe names, but not the actual recipes) or a textbook (only structure and organization of the subject matter copied, not the actual text or excercises)?

To me it seems fairly obvious that the correct answers are 1. mmmmaybe for the fiction example though I think not, but definitely not for the cookbook or textbook, and 2. It is absolutely fair use for all categories of works, even fiction

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#606

Maybe this will persuade Google to use a better language that welcomes innovation (rust/c++) and frees them from Java commitments and they see past the sunk cost fallacy. It also displays why all companies should move away from Oracle and their totalitarian attitude and towards open source databases that respect their rights.

Google already transitioned over to OpenJDK in 2016, which they have an ironclad right to use for free. This litigation is just about whether Google owes Oracle money for the period 2008-2016.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#607

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

Yes and we should not forget that min and max are not just methods with names, they have a contract too and should behave in a certain way. For these examples thus might not seem like a big deal, but the contract must apply for all methods, even non-trivial ones.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#608
post #329
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consequences will be that people will only use open standards and languages. Proprietary languages and APIs will be shunned because you'll be permanently locked in with compatible alternatives illegal.

So, after initial fallout it is a long-term win for software industry, right? ;)

Yea, though the fallout will be pretty bad when IBM comes trolling around with their shiny new copyright on SQL. Copyright lasts 70 years from the death of the author, so IBM would be handed an active infringement claim on basically every company that has ever sold a database product.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#609
post #603

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

API itself is already a specific compilation (of function signatures). But it's still meta information, not actual information on the implementation of the functionality. Making API copyrightable is absurd and harmful, same as it's absurd to copyright abstract concepts. European judges got that right.

Exactly this, the meta information point is spot on.

IIRC there is durable precedent that mechanical collections of information w/ no creative "touch" are ineligible for copyright. I wonder if that can be extended to the meta information definition you came up with.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#610

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

Are anthologies of poems copy writable? I thought not.

Different from this case, anthologies imply curation which is a legitimately creative act.
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