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In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

theatlantic.com

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Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#81

Post by gambling8nt »

dfranke wrote: post #74
orib wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with dissecting a book is that -- just like dissecting an animal -- at the end of the exercise, the subject of the dissection is dead. While mulling over a good book and discussing it can be enjoyable, the attempt to squeeze deep meaning out of something that the author put in by chance simply kills the joy of a good book. Besides, I find that often the books that tend to be chosen for literature classes…

Tolkien is a strange exception to that rule. You can get into endless debates about symbolism or about the influences that Tolkien built on, and end up enjoying his work more than you ever did before. I can't think of any other author who's like that.

That is because, unlike most authors, Tolkien was actually trying to put symbolism into his work--he wasn't trying to just write a novel; he was telling an epic. Being a linguist, he recognized that, in the many retellings of an epic, small embellishments are added in order to provide side stories and submorals.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#82

Post by derefr »

aasarava wrote: post #52
neilk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles. We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to ejec…

Well, with OSX at least, the trash is in the dock (so not quite on the desktop any more), and most people eject using the single-purpose Eject button on their keyboards. Also, the button is usually marked with an "1/0" symbol, not really an "off", so it really just means "toggle power."

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#83

Post by derefr »

blogimus wrote: post #54
aasarava wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to ejec…

Or also with the cell phone: "Why do I have to press 'send' to make a call? On a regular phone, I just dial the number. I press 'send' when I send a fax."

Not on a cordless phone you don't (does anyone really have a phone any more that has a dial tone from the moment you pick it up?)

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#84

Post by dfranke »

gambling8nt wrote: post #81
dfranke wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolkien is a strange exception to that rule. You can get into endless debates about symbolism or about the influences that Tolkien built on, and end up enjoying his work more than you ever did before. I can't think of any other author who's like that.

That is because, unlike most authors, Tolkien was actually trying to put symbolism into his work--he wasn't trying to just write a novel; he was telling an epic. Being a linguist, he recognized that, in the many retellings of an epic, small embellishments are added in order to provide side stories and submorals.

Tolkien certainly isn't the only author who has ever deliberately inserted symbolism, though. He is, however, one of the few among them who isn't painful to read. There's certainly plenty of symbolism in D.H. Lawrence, but it was put there for the express purpose of being dissected by literary critics.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#85

Post by derefr »

davidw wrote: post #22
orib wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with dissecting a book is that -- just like dissecting an animal -- at the end of the exercise, the subject of the dissection is dead. While mulling over a good book and discussing it can be enjoyable, the attempt to squeeze deep meaning out of something that the author put in by chance simply kills the joy of a good book. Besides, I find that often the books that tend to be chosen for literature classes…

My favorite 'English' class in high school was a journalism class, which was centered around learning to write well and communicate something effectively, with none of the BS about "hidden symbolism". I proudly got a D on an English paper once, when the topic was "how does the symbolism help us understand what the author is telling us", where I answered that it didn't help in the slightest, and that, truth be told, i…

Do you know how zen koans work? They help you understand yourself. They don't do it by telling you about yourself, but rather by tricking your mind into paying attention to nothing other than yourself, even though you might not consciously want to.

In the same way, symbolism is intended to trick the mind into grasping a concept it consciously has problems with understanding, or perhaps outright disagrees with. It's like grinding a vitamin into dogfood--the dog won't notice, but it's getting healthier. You might be an ardant anti-___ist and never want to hear a single word on ____ism, but a carefully crafted allegory about ____ism might have you more of a believer than you knew.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#86

Post by DaniFong »

jbenz wrote: post #28
maximilian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone c…

My Mom always wants the screen to "return to the way it was". Me: You mean the desktop? Mom: I don't know. The way it was. Me: Is it this? (shows her the desktop) Mom: No. It was all black. Me: You mean off? (shuts computer down) Mom: Yes. Thank you. My Mom's a preschool teacher, and I will rely heavily on her wisdom when I have kids, seeing as I don't know jack about 3 year olds. Me in 7 years: Mom, my kid won't eat…

Aza and Jef Raskin's evangelism of static interfaces make a lot more sense in light of this. Thanks.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#87

Post by andrewl »

davidw wrote: post #22
orib wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with dissecting a book is that -- just like dissecting an animal -- at the end of the exercise, the subject of the dissection is dead. While mulling over a good book and discussing it can be enjoyable, the attempt to squeeze deep meaning out of something that the author put in by chance simply kills the joy of a good book. Besides, I find that often the books that tend to be chosen for literature classes…

My favorite 'English' class in high school was a journalism class, which was centered around learning to write well and communicate something effectively, with none of the BS about "hidden symbolism". I proudly got a D on an English paper once, when the topic was "how does the symbolism help us understand what the author is telling us", where I answered that it didn't help in the slightest, and that, truth be told, i…

DavidW, what was the book?

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#88

Post by sophist »

aspirant wrote: post #73

Thoreau said, "For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root." Here is my attempt. Shortly after we're born, we begin to perceive a certain amount of value in everything we encounter. We assign value to food, attention, comfort, safety, pleasure, affection, entertainment, possessions, virtue, appearance, and a million other things. We assign value to a thousand instances of a hun…

The classic nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate. The problem with your argument is that it's simply not backed up by evidence. There are plenty of cases of children who grow up in virtually identical environments, yet go on to have widely varying interests. My brother and I grew up experiencing basically all the same stimuli: same parents, same TV shows, same music, same magazines, same everything. As adults we couldn't be more different.

There's more to this picture than just stimulus response/valuation/categorization.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#89

Post by sdurkin »

marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

You should take a job at Wendy's for a week.

The vast majority of society functions at a cognitive level that is so low as to be shocking. What's even more amazing is that these people are able to hold a job, earn a living, and have a family.

People who have higher thinking skills live in an entirely different world from the mainstream of humanity. It turns out that intelligence is a lot less necessary to leading a normal life than you and I might think.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#90

Post by rms »

sdurkin wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

You should take a job at Wendy's for a week. The vast majority of society functions at a cognitive level that is so low as to be shocking. What's even more amazing is that these people are able to hold a job, earn a living, and have a family. People who have higher thinking skills live in an entirely different world from the mainstream of humanity. It turns out that intelligence is a lot less necessary to leading a n…

>People who have higher thinking skills live in an entirely different world from the mainstream of humanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch

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