I saw one question from Gorsuch quoted in reports about the arguments that bothered me: "What do we do about the fact that the other competitors, Apple, Microsoft ... have, in fact, been able to come up with phones that work just fine without engaging in this kind of copying?" macOS and iOS (and indeed Apple itself) would not exist as we know them today, if at all, without very liberal cross pollination of APIs. In a…
Darwin copies Unix APIs from AT&T. They have engaged in this kind of copying. They just haven't been sued about it.
Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
441–450 of 771 posts
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#442Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The law understands that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. My point is that "the whole" is the implementation of the Java standard library and the API is really still just the recipe. > It's also an interesting model case because it's inherently so very open, without (particularly pre-Jigsaw) a clearly demarcated dividing line between "API" and "implementation." The line is clear even if the language put…
You're drawing lines in places that best serve your position, rather than considering the whole landscape. "Whole" in the sense of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" is not generally understood to imply the maximal possible scope in any given context. It's simply meant to meant to talk about how the identify an aggregation (of no particular scale) relates to the identities of its individual components. Sim…
Which is how I'm using it. An API that consists of two functions and one that consists of a billion functions have completely different scales but each whole unit has an API portion and an implementation portion. And the API portion is the recipe. It's a purely factual description of what the implementation is expected to do.
> Similarly, the API/not-API distinction is one that has to be made in contexts beyond just the relationship of function signatures to function implementations. Foo was declared as a public class, but was it meant for public consumption? Or is it intended for internal use, and was only declared public because, for practical reasons, it couldn't be declared package-private?
That doesn't affect whether the API parts of it are API parts, only whether the API is regarded as internal or not, which shouldn't be relevant to copyright. Internal APIs shouldn't be copyrightable either.
> The issue at hand really doesn't have anything at all to do with how programmers understand things.
It better, or you're in real trouble, because then all you have are meaningless zeros and ones.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#443Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oracle has done that, too. They release the full JDK under the GPL. The law around these sorts of things can get pretty hair-splitty. My guess is that the situation here is that Amazon client libraries and OpenJDK are distributed with a license to create derivative works that are based on their respective products, but that these licenses do not necessarily grant a license to create a new thing that works the same ou…
OpenJDK did not exist when Android was developed and initially released. Google did move to using it 2016 and may not have liability after that date.
OpenJDK was first released May 2007...
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#444Should Oracle win this case, I predict that Free Software licenses will emerge as the clear market choice. Licenses that enshrine interoperability along with the freedom to modify or reimplement in part or wholesale will suddenly provide significantly more value over non-Free software which will be a proprietary minefield and the value will not be for technical but purely from legal liability. Anyone setting out to d…
When I learned that Java is open source, I had assumed that it was free . I guess I was wrong.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#445Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#446Earlier quoted context omitted.
OpenJDK did not exist when Android was developed and initially released. Google did move to using it 2016 and may not have liability after that date.
Andriod was First released in Sept 2008, OpenJDK was first released May 2007...
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#447Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually screw heads are copyrighted, see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Robertson
Copyrights are not patents, and your link asserts that the Robertson screw design is patented, not copyrighted. The Google vs. Oracle case is about copyrights.
Originally, Oracle sued for both patent infringement and copyright infringement. When they appealed, the appeal went to the Federal Circuit because of the patent issues, and so the Federal Circuit ended up handling the appeal of both the patent issues and the copyright issues.
If the case been just a copyright case, the appeal would have went to the 9th Circuit.
If it had taken that route, the 9th Circuit would have almost certainly upheld Judge Alsop, and the Supreme Court almost certainly would not have taken an appeal from that.
The Federal Circuit is suppose to apply the precedent of the circuit that the case came from when deciding issues like the copyright issues that are only before the Federal Circuit because they tagged along on a patent case. In this case, that means they were suppose to follow the 9th Circuit precedent.
I think we need to change the way the Federal Circuit works in cases like this. If they decide issues that got there via tag along, I think the appeals path for those issues should be to the circuit whose precedent they are suppose to be following. In this case, that would mean that the copyright issues should go to the 9th Circuit after the Federal Circuit.
The current way can lead to a situation where in a given circuit you can effectively have different laws for X depending on whether or not someone sues you just over X, or over X and patents.
If sued over just X, the law on X is what the circuit court of appeals for your circuit says. If sued over X and patents, the law on X is whatever the Federal Circuit thinks it is. Those can diverge, and then you have the situation that plaintiffs can choose what they want--sue just for X to get their circuit's law, or toss in a throwaway patent claim to get the Federal Circuit's law.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#448Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I also find it weird that "conservative" judges are expected to support APIs copyrightability. They aren't expected to because they are conservative. The judges that acted in a way which (the writer believes) suggests they support Oracle's position happen to also be the conservative justices.
How much of this happen to be is accidental? For me it looks like a pattern. Especially if they are divided by the same lines. Let's wait and see until the final decision though.
A lot.
It's not like anyone is appointing judges with an API-copyrightability litmus test.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
Copyrights are not patents, and your link asserts that the Robertson screw design is patented, not copyrighted. The Google vs. Oracle case is about copyrights.
Procedural trivia time: the Google vs. Oracle case is about copyrights, but if it weren't for patents it would not be at the Supreme Court. Originally, Oracle sued for both patent infringement and copyright infringement. When they appealed, the appeal went to the Federal Circuit because of the patent issues, and so the Federal Circuit ended up handling the appeal of both the patent issues and the copyright issues. If…
Sure it would.
Unless they decided not to take it; it was coming to them one way or another. It's not like either side was going to take a loss lying down.
But the Seventh Amendment issue probably wouldn't be in it if the patent issues hadn't had it going through the CAFC rather than the 9th Cir.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#450I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…
Having read multiple perspectives, some pro-Google and some pro-Oracle, I cannot reconcile this sort of argument with the Baker v. Selden precedent. [1] Perhaps my understanding of APIs is different because I'm an engineer and not a lawyer, but how is this not an open and shut case? The cookbook analogy is not applicable for the same reason one could not apply it in Baker , accounting methods are not of themselves co…
I design an API for graphical coding and spend significant creative energy choosing the right words, calling conventions, result types to not only make something intuitive, but emotionally pleasurable to code with
Sometimes I'll spend days writing out possible forms of the API — changing words, tense, syntax, until it looks and feels "right." These aren't arbitrary or purely functional decisions
Do I want my users to "read" text from a file, or "open" the file? Do I want them to handle keyboard events in a simple global function or assign callbacks into a keyboard handler under each character name. How are those callbacks shaped? What's easy to understand?
APIs aren't just restricted simple functions and types. Some may involve the creation of a custom DSL to make it easy to declare functionality in part of your system, or clusters of protocols that work together in very specific ways so users can implement a complex system atop them