Should Oracle win this case, I predict that Free Software licenses will emerge as the clear market choice. Licenses that enshrine interoperability along with the freedom to modify or reimplement in part or wholesale will suddenly provide significantly more value over non-Free software which will be a proprietary minefield and the value will not be for technical but purely from legal liability. Anyone setting out to d…
Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
211–220 of 771 posts
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#212That's ridiculous for software APIs, I could be okay with APIs having some temporary copyright for a shorter amount of time, say 5 years, but that's just unreasonably too much.
Do we have any other technical fields where technical work fall under copyright? I feel that's the main issue, copyright was clearly designed for work of art and fiction.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
What really sucks is this was a perfect time for a lawyer to use Justice Thomas' analogy to better explain the difference. I would have tried something like: "Close your honor, but let me expand on this further. Imagine instead that your opponent publishes their calls and they are regularly available to all individuals of the general public. However, while they may describe a call for going long, they do not give any…
I think the playbook is just a bad analogy because it misses that point of what an interface is. It's the means of connecting two dissimilar mechanisms. A translation layer. I'd have argued it's more like copyrighting doorknob placement (opposite hinge, at hand height) and operation (twisting) on doors vs. patenting a novel mechanism inside the doorknob. A football playbook is more like the blueprints of the inside o…
And that is one of several arguments Oracle made, that api interface is a stencil.
I think I would agree the law supports that argument from what I know about it, copyright is pretty broad. But at the same time, I think that is perverse and we should change the law.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would love to see IBM try to sue Oracle for the entirety of its history of database revenues over its use of their SQL API...
SQL is an ISO standard. IBM would only have grounds if any part of Oracle's implementation implemented a proprietary portion of an IBM database implementation. This is the positive thing about standards, it removes ambiguity around what people can/should implement and present to users of the systems.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#215Maybe we get lucky and the SCOTUS ruling comes down against uncopyable API's. But while that seems questionable at the moment, it's important to remember one thing: there is always an "out" even in the "nuclear option" case and that is "have Congress change the law". It seems to me that now is the time to start thinking about putting together a mass effort to get Congress to change copyright law, to establish clearly…
+1 to this. More generally, I feel that one of the main reasons the Supreme Court is such a powerful body nowadays, and why cases like this are considered so important, is because Congress has become so ineffectual. We have internalized the idea that the Supreme Court has the last word on every matter before it. But it emphatically does not. The Supreme Court is only the last word on constitutional cases. So many dec…
I agree 100% with those sentiments.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#216I started reading this article today thinking that the case was clear-cut - Oracle's wrong and Google is right. As I read the article and the comments I'm now not at all sure. We all are trying to come up with a good analogy to explain why APIs are distinct from implementations, why it's 'obvious' to a programmer how they're distinct, and how their rules should be distinct. But the more I think about it, and read fee…
Even so, the Java API is clearly documented and publicly available and anyone can look it over. It's clear that it provides a contract to the software developer saying things like "if you give me this data when you call this method, I will give you data that looks like this in return". The idea that an API is a contract, I think is sound and the analogy holds water, in my opinion.
Is there really nothing creative about writing an API? Well, I think that's an arguable point. When you drive a car you steer a wheel and when you type you press buttons; it's arguable that these are simply obvious implementations that many people might independently develop on their own. It's mechanical and, perhaps, lacking in creativity. But the Java API? Some portions, for sure, are obvious: any collection of things has a "length" method. But someone did come up with a plan for managing the namespaces and the package names and some packages have APIs that are pretty clever and, perhaps, reveal true creativity.
Still I'm against protecting APIs from third-party re-implementation. I did not find Oracle's arguments at all compelling and, in my view, that was really their job here. Instead they pretended that this idea of an API as a contract anyone could re-implement was totally alien to them and that struck me as a bit dishonest.
I'd like to see a more compelling argument before we upend how we thought APIs worked for the past forty years.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is really an important distinction. Social issues like gay marriage and things like this are completely orthogonal. The Democratic Party as a whole is very much neoliberal or liberal as opposed to left. Liberal judges are much the same.
The Democratic Party would be considered center-right in any other country of the world, but the USA.
What is with the ridiculous hyperbole that's so common when talking about America on the internet, especially by non-Americans? Talk about "American exceptionalism" - just in a different way.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
One question from a judge was that if “API is copyrightable” is bad, why didn’t we see sky falling in last 4 years since federal court decided so?
Because the vast majority of tech companies disagree with the law, and were probably expecting SCOTUS to overturn the case. When they realize that they're leaving money on the table, then we're going to see claims and counterclaims all over the place.
https://docs.cloud.oracle.com/en-us/iaas/Content/Object/Task...
I mean even the freaking headers are the same which some could consider an implementation detail.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Any real solution will have to be legislated. " So true. Congress can amend the particular section of the code to explicitly exclude APIs from being copyrightable ... if they want to.
I thought Congress only existed to appoint judges.
Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
APIs being copyrightable doesn't actually harm implementations of APIs that fall under fair use. (Fair use exemptions specifically apply to copyrighted things.) Interoperability is fair use. And things like something being non-commercial, such as a lot of open source software, is a major factor in determining whether or not usage is fair. Things like WINE or NES emulators or the like would fall very comfortably into…
> Interoperability is fair use. What about improving the API? E.g. some languages may be mostly but not 100% compatible with existing languages and provide more or less the same API but not be 100% the same - both the in the runtime library (API) and the language itself. For example Free Pascal is mostly compatible with Delphi but not the same and its runtime library is mostly the same as Delphi but also not the same…