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Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

nytimes.com

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Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#91

Post by varispeed »

rsynnott wrote: post #72
varispeed wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway. Good program would also give out medical grade clean heroin like they do in Switzerland. Clean heroin is relatively safe contrary to popular opinion. This removes the dealers from that segment of the market or at least severely reduces the sales volume.

> That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway In general, the main drug-related vector for disease is needle sharing. Most pathogens wouldn't survive long in the actual heroin, and it's not clear how they'd get there in the first place.

This is true, but many contaminants can still cause serious diseases and uneven distribution of active substances may lead to accidental overdose. Also unknown composition of the "drug" can cause unexpected interactions with other drugs people may be taking at the same time. There also seems to be no proof that drop in prevalence of those diseases caused by needle sharing actually is caused by this program and not by cultural change and education that maybe changing the method of administering the drug is "healthier" (e.g. consumers started to prefer smoking over injecting).

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#92

Post by bismuthsalt »

severine wrote: post #53
bismuthsalt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversation in America, on any topic, is between two extreme sides which get further apart and further unreasonable as time passes. Fast forwarding circa 2021, one side wants to throw anyone with 1g of marijuana in a 30ft radius from their car into jail for 10 years, the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools. More seriously, the big distinction is between drug users and drug dealers. The former…

> the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools. Even followed with a "more seriosly", that's an unfair and misleading representation.

Less than you'd think. Circa 2020, some mainstream positions in a west coast city that is politically 85% leftwing:

* Cannabis already legalized. Driving kids to school past huge "Amazing Cannabis" posters all over the city.

* De facto policy to not interfere with the ever growing mass of homeless addicts in the streets.

Next steps:

* Legalize all drugs.

* State sponsored "safe" injection sites.

* Abolish the police.

The only stretch is "in schools". There is a palpable sense of a loss of any and all moral barriers. Worse, erst shunned behaviors must be promoted, if only to spite the other side. In the wake of sexual liberation we got free condom dispensers in schools. Not much of a stretch to imagine that drug liberation, the next Chesterton fence to tear down, will bring free drug dispensers. Teach abstinence? Pshaw, that'll never work. Addiction therapy? That's evil, man.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#93

Post by dkarl »

galfarragem wrote: post #57
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

It's not the first time the NYT insists in this idea. Ok, it's good advertisement to our tourism but this is just fake news. I grew up in one of the "drug towns" of the late 80's/early 90's in Portugal. It was bad, really bad. There wasn't any extended family without a drug problem. That generation, bornt after the 1974 revolution, now in the mid 40's, was almost erased from there. Some died and those remaining, afte…

> decriminalization gave even more visibility to the addiction problem and newer generations didn't like what they saw

I can believe this. My father used to tell me that drugs like heroin have recurring waves of popularity, because when a dangerous drug becomes popular enough, the Russian roulette aspect becomes so obvious. Everybody knows somebody whose life has been ruined by it. When a drug becomes niche, the few people you know who use it might be handling it okay (or early in their trajectory with the drug) and their experience with it can look cool and attractive. He also said his generation was the last one where basically everybody had seen firsthand what heroin could do to people, but he was optimistic that it had "killed enough famous musicians" that it couldn't come back. That was in the 1990s, so....

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#94

Post by akiselev »

mkatx wrote: post #14
ttul wrote: post #8

British Columbia’s medical health officer recently gave nurses the ability to prescribe opioid replacement drugs to improve the supply. Many more people are dying from toxic street drugs than are dying from COVID-19. It’s a “shadow pandemic” that has been raging for decades and is only getting worse as border closures make it harder for gangs to move drugs like heroin and fentanyl across borders, leading to shortages…

> Many more people are dying from toxic street drugs than are dying from COVID-19. It’s a “shadow pandemic” In America, the worse year of the opioid crisis killed ~65k people from my recollection. The "real pandemic" killed that many americans in the past 2 months. Am I misunderstanding something? Edit: I cannot spell.

British Columbia is in Canada, which as a country has had about 175,000 cases total and under 10,000 deaths.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#95

Post by kyrers »

joaofs wrote: post #89
kyrers wrote: post #49

This is one of the things that makes me proud to be Portuguese. Also, does anyone remember the name of the doctor that started this whole movement? I think the first name is João, but I can't remember or find it. I might be tripping, pun intended.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Castel-Branco_Goul%C...

Thanks!

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#96

Post by Krasnol »

DanBC wrote: post #74
Krasnol wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works! Are there any scientific facts which would back this? To me it feels like there have been several other causes to that which were much more relevant. Not allowing people to smoke inside, vaping and smoking getting "out of fashion" were much more successful. It's just not cool anymore and those who still want to smoke are being c…

The biggest driver of behaviour change is increasing the price. Cigarettes are considerably more expensive (even when adjusting for inflation) than they used to be. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/06/19/price-of-a-p... Other things (bans on ads, bans on smoking in venues, health information) do help, but they're a smaller part of the picture.

True. I did forget this up there.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#97

Post by js2 »

galfarragem wrote: post #57
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

It's not the first time the NYT insists in this idea. Ok, it's good advertisement to our tourism but this is just fake news. I grew up in one of the "drug towns" of the late 80's/early 90's in Portugal. It was bad, really bad. There wasn't any extended family without a drug problem. That generation, bornt after the 1974 revolution, now in the mid 40's, was almost erased from there. Some died and those remaining, afte…

Sorry, but what's your complaint about this specific piece from the NYT?

Just skimming, I see 21 links to other sources. I haven't clicked through on all of them. It appears to weigh various pros and cons. It seems even handed to me on a quick skim.

Further, the NYT has many sections and voices. This piece is specifically from from The Upshot which has this tagline: "Analysis that explains politics, policy and everyday life, with an emphasis on data and charts."

And this specific piece is written not by a reporter, but by a expert in the field: Austin Frakt is director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and a senior research scientist with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

I appreciate the rest of your comment.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#98

Post by DubiousPusher »

bismuthsalt wrote: post #92
severine wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools. Even followed with a "more seriosly", that's an unfair and misleading representation.

Less than you'd think. Circa 2020, some mainstream positions in a west coast city that is politically 85% leftwing: * Cannabis already legalized. Driving kids to school past huge "Amazing Cannabis" posters all over the city. * De facto policy to not interfere with the ever growing mass of homeless addicts in the streets. Next steps: * Legalize all drugs. * State sponsored "safe" injection sites. * Abolish the police.…

I live on the West Coast in one of those "85% leftwing" cities. None of the power structures are made up of anything like a majority advocating those things: state, county nor city.

Our county has attempted to open two whole safe injection sites and it has been extremely contentious.

There is absolutely no political will to abolish the police. The single city council member who advocated ir is now in a recall fight.

Public users are left to their devices perhaps in part out of some attempt at humanity but there is budgetary pressure for this as well. The county jails are routinely overfull and the police would rather hold more dangerous offenders there.

Just because people don't go around clutching their pearls at the sight of people using drugs on the street doesn't mean they are indifferent or in support. When I go to the beach I get sand in my shorts but I don't write my congressman about it.

You can agree or disagree with the the policies. You can praise or bemoan the outcome of policy. But you are weaving circumstance and conditions into a tapestry of intent.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#99

Post by DoingIsLearning »

js2 wrote: post #97
galfarragem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the first time the NYT insists in this idea. Ok, it's good advertisement to our tourism but this is just fake news. I grew up in one of the "drug towns" of the late 80's/early 90's in Portugal. It was bad, really bad. There wasn't any extended family without a drug problem. That generation, bornt after the 1974 revolution, now in the mid 40's, was almost erased from there. Some died and those remaining, afte…

Sorry, but what's your complaint about this specific piece from the NYT? Just skimming, I see 21 links to other sources. I haven't clicked through on all of them. It appears to weigh various pros and cons. It seems even handed to me on a quick skim. Further, the NYT has many sections and voices. This piece is specifically from from The Upshot which has this tagline: "Analysis that explains politics, policy and everyd…

Not the grand parent comment and I don't have anything specifically against the NYT or this piece, which I agree is pretty balanced.

It is great that they paint a positive picture of Portugal as a forward-thinking progressive nation, the point that Portuguese people often take an issue with this and other pieces, in american and british press, is that they fail to explain the motivation behind this policy.

These measures were not a hippie social experiment, they were created out of a desperate lack of alternatives in the face of a de facto public health crisis due to a heroin epidemic.

I cannot put in words that make it justice, you had entire neighbourhoods become drug slums with hundreds of heroin dealers and people inject on the sidewalks in broad daylight. It was crime problem, it was a health problem, it was a whole generation of people lost to this. It's this omission in the 'why' of decriminalization that feels somewhat dishonest.

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