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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#321

Post by mcv »

dexen wrote: post #289
skitout wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

>And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. European here, let's talk personal experience. The americans have a very unhealthy situation wrt unions, and i'm not surprised people with do-it-yourself and can-do attitudes common in tech are soured up to them. And my impressions are relative to polish culture, where unions are traditionally quite strong…

This is the weird thing. Americans love to complain about how stupid their unions are, and according to some anecdotes, some American unions are indeed pretty stupid. But these are the unions created by Americans.

I don't quite understand the underlying cultural issue that leads Americans to create unions they hate. It's got to be something cultural. Or is it something in US law? It seems so easy to fix, but somehow they end up creating something they hate. Why? What causes this, and why is it so hard to fix?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#322

Post by PeterStuer »

qsort wrote: post #305
brushfoot wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a strawman. You're saying that those who disagree with tech unions are: - Autistic - Uneducated and naive ("real soon now," presumably said with a folksy twang) - "Very young" - Too cowardly or ethically naive to object to bad working conditions Here's a more charitable possibility: Opponents may just not see the need at this point. Or they may dislike union culture. Unionizing isn't all positive. There…

> That's quite a strawman. It's quite a popular strawman, unfortunately. Tech workers are almost universally despised in leftist circles. (disclaimer: I work in tech, hold left-leaning views and I actually believe some form of unionization in tech would be beneficial)

I work in tech and most certainly do not despise tech workers. I don't see what political leaning would have to do with this issue. I am in favor of some form of collective bargaining, but at the same time aware of some of the potential abuses that sometimes come with that as well.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#323

Post by [deleted] »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

[deleted]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#324

Post by skitout »

username90 wrote: post #300
skitout wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding unions that can "forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit" are exceptions not the rules in 2020 USA (and clearly not what the article was talking about). Perhaps am I ill informed (never been in USA, and my friend living there are not in unions), could you give us some sources saying that what you say is the main form of union in USA today ?

Kickstarter is such a union. Many of the union members didn't want it. I'd bet even most of the software engineers didn't want it, but were forced to since they were bundled up with a lot of unrelated professions. > In the end, employees voted 46-to-37 in favor of unionizing > As of February 2020, the union was made up of 85 engineers, directors, analysts, designers, coordinators, and customer support specialists htt…

The union "represented about 60 percent of the company’s 140 employees prior to the layoffs". From the article you mentioned.

If 40% of the workers are not part of the union, seems that you are free to be part or not of the union. And that the union makes sense to the worker, as more than half of the workforce choose to join.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#325

Post by PeterStuer »

pjc50 wrote: post #283
PeterStuer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

> Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. This made me wince; while it's not straight up wrong it's a collection of generalisations about humans jammed together that deserves a slightly more delicate unpacking. Like opening an Amazon box and finding your electronics just fall out with no foam peanuts or other protection.

You are right that that is a delicate issue and could deserve a long treatise on its own. I tried to qualify it sufficiently, but it is easy to caricature as the first reply to my post already seems to do in a callous way.

It was most certainly not meant in any way to be derogatory, as I myself don't think of any of this in a negative way at all.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#326

Post by fennecfoxen »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #318
fennecfoxen wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they have cause think otherwise? Do many tech people have exposure to the entertainment industry?

I don't see why they wouldn't have more exposure to the existence of the Writers Guild of America than they would to the Brotherhood of Teamsters. Certainly in recent years there have been a few prominent WGA strikes that would have been hard to miss.

Tech people go to conferences and conventions. (If they do not go, colleagues might go.) Conference venues are notorious for having unions that flip out if you attempt to perform basic tasks like moving your own objects a few inches or plugging a laptop into an electrical outlet. Because the stories are outrageous, they are shared with colleagues.

Tech people work in buildings. Some buildings are union-operated, particularly for smaller firms that do not own their own campus. The most direct experience a tech person might have with a union on a day to day basis is as an explanation for why there are months-long delays for basic repairs and upgrades to their facilities.

Is there any similar manner in which tech people interact with the Writers Guild of America? ... Perhaps at Netflix specifically? News coverage of the writer's strike is not the same.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#327

Post by moocowtruck »

andy99 wrote: post #46
moocowtruck wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working with a tech union for 15 years, and it's been horrible. I could sit here for hours listing out all the ridiculousness...but a small taste, grievance for being woken up from slumber too abruptly. Whats that? I'm playing star ocean and I cant talk right now middle of boss fightz. How do public companies deal with unions when the workforce gets to where it no longer really needs to accomplish things? M…

> How do public companies deal with unions when the workforce gets to where it no longer really needs to accomplish things? Ask the manufacturing sector

didn't they all move away from US ?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#328

Post by skitout »

username90 wrote: post #298
pjc50 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening. It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

There is no difference between between being forced to join and being forced to pay the same dues and follow same rules. That is why right-to-work laws is important, the law in 1947 did nothing to stop it.

There is a big difference.

As French taxpayer I am forced to (indirectly) pay for all French political parties, including extreme right. This money gives political parties some freedom to act, to nourish the political debate... seen as a way to straighten the political debate and the democracy ; good for the general interest.

Still the number of members of a given political movement and the share of people voting for it is giving it the real power. And as someone only forced to give (indirectly) some money to a given movement is then entirely different than being force to join such a movement. And that is the same here for union.

Please note that as a worker, you are forced to "pay" for the stockholder. If you are not happy with it you can pick another oragnisation. Same goes for union, you are always free to join a union free company...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#329

Post by mcv »

pjc50 wrote: post #288
username90 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening. It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

Interesting that it's so common in the US despite having been illegal for so long, whereas it hardly ever happens in the EU despite it having been legal until recently.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#330

Post by mcv »

username90 wrote: post #272
faitswulff wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

About that political power, in some European countries, and maybe most famously in Netherland, a lot of big labour-related economic decisions are made in a committee with representatives of the government, representatives of employer organisations, and representatives of the major unions. They discuss and agree on salary structures, pay increases, labour conditions, and I think they can even make suggestions for changes in the tax system. If all three agree that something is better for the country, the companies and the workers, then it's very likely to happen. Note that these agreements hold for everybody, and not just union members. So non-members do benefit from some things the union does.

But the important part is: they need to balance the needs of all three parties: the country, the companies, and the workers. It would be stupid to sacrifice one of these for the benefit of one of the other stakeholders, as that would ultimately hurt everybody.

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