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Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#31

Post by abdullahkhalids »

nikhilsimha wrote: post #24

Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes.. IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separ…

As a Pakistani, school was not as described in the essay, but there were definitely elements of it. Some people were definitely bad at academics (by choice sometimes), but good at various extracurriculars. There were definitely "jocks" who excelled at sports or music or debates, and were in danger of being kicked out because of grades. Some of the "jocks" had bad social skills, a lot of the "nerds" had excellent social skills.

But people were absolutely not excluded from friendships because of what activities they participated in. I saw all sorts of friendships, because people just liked people. There was bullying, but it happened for other reasons.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#33

Post by muzani »

Barrin92 wrote: post #7

eh I hate this kind of Ender's game self-victimisation. Nerds aren't unpopular because they're too smart for school and all the athletic jocks envy them, they're unpopular because they act like nerds. That's not a passive thing happening to someone, it's something that people actively act like. Obviously one can be highly intelligent in school and not be nerdy, everyone knows people who are intelligent as well as pop…

I think the main argument here is that it takes work to be popular. A "nerd" is simply someone who chooses to neglect that. I used to not comb my hair, not iron my shirts, and wear my pants a little high.

You're close to something though - a nerd thinks they're too important to put effort into being popular. In a world where everyone shampoos, combs their hair, puts on deodorant to please others, that seems quite snobbish.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#34

Post by gridlockd »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #26
tipsytoad wrote: post #16

Ok as someone who enjoys doing 'nerdy' things but would count myself as 'popular' etc this article is deluded on the ways popularity and school operate. Noone cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward…

> No one cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. This passage makes me think you miss…

> Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation.

If you believe the problem is with "everyone else", the problem really is with you. Nerds generally struggle with holding conversations without constantly sending "out-group" signals while failing to send "in-group" signals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yN2H3--1aw

Unlike in this satirical clip, I don't think it's possible to fake being "a normal guy". However, in my experience, it's possible to build rapport by being respectful and signaling that you get where the other person is coming from. Avoid being intellectually dominating. That way, you'll be perceived as "that okay smart guy" instead of "that fucking nerd".

Even if you don't care about being popular, learning how to read people is an extremely important skill, especially if you're somewhere on the autism spectrum. Just approach it as another nerd subject (human psychology).

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#35

Post by muzani »

nikhilsimha wrote: post #24

Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes.. IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separ…

This might be the case in many Asian countries too. Me and my classmates grew up watching American (and Japanese) high school movies, but the stereotypes never stuck.

Bullying exists, but the bullies were often the ones who did well in class. Bullies are those who pick on easy prey weaker than them, and those who got isolated into the "dumb classes" were easily bullied. Move up in university and boarding school, and bullying became a lot more extreme, heavily controlled by the ones with good grades.

The kids with bad grades tended to have less willpower, come from poorer families, smoked and had less stamina, dressed poorly and couldn't afford tuition. They had a lot of discrimination stacked against them, and were easily oppressed by the "nerds".

I would categorize myself as a nerd in that I didn't bother with how I looked or dressed, or that I had bad handwriting. But that attitude lent me a more regal reputation in school; similar to punk or "bad boy" instead.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#36

Post by higerordermap »

nikhilsimha wrote: post #24

Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes.. IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separ…

Indian definition of academic achievement is very rote learning focused. The academically very successful person is not likely to be very intelligent, they might just happen to be hard working because indian education system is mostly rote learning based.

In the above-average-but-not-best part of academic achievements spectrum is where most of the actually intelligent people are found. They are not as studious as their hardworking "topper" counterparts, but in general, actually understand the subjects and can think creatively.

In my experience here, I have seen lot of "academically succesful" people and lot of intelligent people, there are very few people who are in both of these sets.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#37

Post by etripe »

gridlockd wrote: post #34
dropit_sphere wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. This passage makes me think you miss…

> Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation. If you believe the problem is with "everyone else", the problem really is with you . Nerds generally struggle with holding conversations without constantly sending "out-group" signals while failing to send "in-group" signals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yN2H3--1…

> If you believe the problem is with "everyone else", the problem really is with you.

The problem with aphorisms like these is they lack nuance. I don't mind it as a general guideline, because it stimulates people to ask themselves whether they're the asshole - a good inroad to introspection that in many is sorely lacking. Likewise, in the context of nerds, it probably applies more often than not.

However, there are situations where the others are the problem: racism, mysoginy, homophobia, unjust laws, macho culture, historical social control exerted by the church, etc. It isn't always true that because behaviour is present in the majority, said behaviour is actually without fault. There is at times a thin line between belonging and herd mentality, and between seeking group harmony and conformity for conformity's sake.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#38

Post by [deleted] »

tipsytoad wrote: post #16

Ok as someone who enjoys doing 'nerdy' things but would count myself as 'popular' etc this article is deluded on the ways popularity and school operate. Noone cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward…

[deleted]

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#39

Post by wolfgke »

etripe wrote: post #37
gridlockd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation. If you believe the problem is with "everyone else", the problem really is with you . Nerds generally struggle with holding conversations without constantly sending "out-group" signals while failing to send "in-group" signals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yN2H3--1…

> If you believe the problem is with "everyone else", the problem really is with you . The problem with aphorisms like these is they lack nuance. I don't mind it as a general guideline, because it stimulates people to ask themselves whether they're the asshole - a good inroad to introspection that in many is sorely lacking. Likewise, in the context of nerds, it probably applies more often than not. However , there ar…

> I don't mind it as a general guideline, because it stimulates people to ask themselves whether they're the asshole - a good inroad to introspection that in many is sorely lacking. Likewise, in the context of nerds, it probably applies more often than not.

Lacking social skills is something completely different than being an asshole.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#40

Post by watwut »

krapp wrote: post #6
sasaf5 wrote: post #5

Another reason why nerd groups are ostracized is envy. In the ocean of boredom that is high school, one group manages to create an island of fantasy and computer programming. While everyone is marred by memorization and popularity contests, one group is having a blast killing imaginary monsters with throws of D20s. That is certainly to be treated with envy.

I hate to break it to you, but no one envied the nerds and D&D kids in high school. No one wanted to be one of the deviant outcasts who spent their time in the basement rather than having a normal social life with status and friends and sex. It's only been relatively recently, with the popularity of the web, that many aspects of former "nerd" culture such as anime and D&D (and of course, using a computer to begin wit…

I played D&D with friends and had non-D&D playing friends in high school. Literally no one treated me as deviant outcast and no one except players cared that I play D&D. There is not dichotomy between D&D vs friends, just like there is no dichotomy between playing music instrument vs friends.

It is just that thing, most kids who don't share your favorite activity just don't care about that activity. If they are nice, they will listen a bit about it.

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