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Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

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Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is Google were also nasty towards Sun and helped it go under quite well. In many ways this is karma but too bad there's so much externality to it.

IIRC they were going to use the reference impl of Java but Sun wanted to inject themselves and the Java brand all over Android. Plus Sun couldn't design a decent UI to save their lives, so Android probably wouldn't have been successful if Google had allowed Sun a large role in the platform.

Actually they did, but too many developers are lazy to buy books and apply their learnings.

http://filthyrichclients.org/

From the same Chet Haase and Romain Guy that went into Android's GUI framework after Sun went under.

And for mobile there was

https://docs.oracle.com/javame/dev-tools/lwuit-1.3/LWUIT_Dev...

Plus, Google could have done just like any other OS vendor does with ISO C and ISO C++, plus whatever OS APIs they feel like adding.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is Google were also nasty towards Sun and helped it go under quite well. In many ways this is karma but too bad there's so much externality to it.

As much as I loved Sun workstations and Solaris, I'm pretty sure Sun went under all by itself.

With the Java licenses that Google have stolen from them, they could have eventually survived.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#403
post #394
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that a fair number of commonly used QR libraries were not developed by people who shelled out for a copy of ISO 18004 (they probably just looked at descriptions of how it works outside of the standard document). Similarly, you can implement your own SQL dialect without needing to read the ISO standard for it. Yes if you want to be certified and want to get a copy of the standards document you'll need…

Sure that is how 1€ product shops work, which doesn't mean the final product actually does what it supposed to do. Then that screwdriver turns itself instead of turning the screw. > probably were involved in drafting it Which also isn't done for free beer, ISO processes have associated costs.

I'm not disagreeing with the validity of ISO or anything like that, I don't know where you got that impression.

The original point being made in this thread was that Oracle copied the API of SQL from IBM and thus is guilty of the same thing that they are accusing Google of doing. The counter-point was that SQL is an ISO standard and Oracle (allegedly) licensed it, which was then followed up by my point about Oracle DB predating the ISO standard. Hence why ISO is being discussed and why I was making the point that buying a standard document from ISO or paying for certification are not really relevant to this discussion.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#404

Oral arguments have already happened: https://www.c-span.org/video/?469263-1/google-v-oracle-ameri... I wasn't able to listen to all of the arguments, but some general takeaways I had: * The justices seemed to be asking mostly technical legal questions of Google (e.g., discuss merger doctrine) and mostly doom-and-gloom questions of Oracle (e.g., how does your argument impact QWERTY keyboards?). This suggests to me th…

The expert to turn to in cases like this is Florian Mueller. While everybody else insisted the Alsup ruling was a slam dunk for Google and would settle API copyrightability once and for all, Mueller insisted that Oracle would win on appeal -- and they did.

Mueller is now telling us that the Court will find for Oracle in a near-unanimous, if not actually unanimous, decision: http://www.fosspatents.com/2020/10/supreme-court-inclined-to...

He points out that the justices have been asking some really pointed questions of Google since you made this post, questions which suggest that they don't buy Google's crap for a second and they think Google is trying to pull a fast one.

The law is pretty unambiguous that Google is liable for copyright infringement. Just because techies thought the law didn't work the way it does for decades doesn't actually change anything.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google didn't copy any of Oracle/Sun's Java source code base into Android Java. Oracle lawyers acknowledge this. You're saying the textual contents of the interfaces that define the APIs are not part of the source code base? Of course Google copied them, or a nearly identical paraphrase of them. I'm not quite sure what Google's legal theory is. Listening to the oral arguments this morning certainly didn't make that…

>I have a bit of trouble with the concept "the threshhold of too much", too, as it applies to this case. Google copied or paraphrased essentially _all_ of the text of interfaces they used from Java libraries Oracle is trying to argue that just because you intentionally left a bunch of implementation detail out because it isn't relevant toward transforming something like the Java API's to a new context, it should stil…

Oracle's argument isn't legally circular or anything like that. It's actually very strong, which is why it's problematic: the industry status-quo consensus that you can't copyright APIs has no obvious basis in copyright law beyond the notion that you can't copyright "facts".

Is an API a collection of facts? I would hate to be a lawyer tasked with arguing this one in front of the Supremes. Programmers sweat bullets over API design, an API is very obviously not a mere collection of facts, it's a creative work. Copyright law protects creative works. Hence, Google's problem.

An API is not a mere collection of names either. The Java API is defined by the specification, which is contained in the JavaDocs. Thread safety rules, when callbacks are invoked, what sub-types can be passed into a parameter, all these are a part of the API as well. Strip out the source code of the methods but leave the types, prototypes and JavaDocs and you have the Java API - it's been done and the result is still huge.

Google's point is essentially one of convenience; the industry has never recognised APIs as copyrightable before and shouldn't now. This is not a legal argument at all so I am mostly expecting Oracle to give them a solid thrashing, because the SC is meant to interpret existing law, not simply agree to whatever one of the parties thinks the law should be. And other than declaring API reimplementation to be fair use, there's no obvious legal escape route to make APIs non-protected.

It's thus interesting to consider what happens if or when Oracle win. In the short run a lot of disruption, especially to projects like Wine and maybe WSL.

In the long run it's harder to say. Something unprotectable would have become protectable. We might see, for example, the birth of companies that specialise in nothing except API design. Today such a company would be unviable because there'd be no way to protect or own the results. You can imagine that this would occur in the same way that specialised agencies do graphics design, translation, logo design, API implementations, etc. This might lead to higher quality APIs across the industry: a difficult to anticipate side effect of expanding IP protection. It would also presumably reduce competition as it became even harder to compete with lockin via reimplementation of APIs. However, doing that is relatively rare today. I can't say for sure that the (small) loss of plug-compatible competing implementations of products would be worse than a hypothetical increase in API quality from allowing specialisation in it.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's a need to allow artists and writers to make money" The current system does not satisfy that standard. Artists and writers don't make money due to far-reaching copyright. Musicians make money by selling tickets to concerts and contract performances. Journalists make money from newspaper pay-walls and advertising.

Your music argument is plausible, but the journalism one doesn't hold water: if there were no copyright, it would only take one paywall subscriber to copy the contents to a paywall-free site (e.g. wsj.com -> freewsjarticles.com), and poof: journalists aren't making money anymore.

I used to work for an education-resources publisher that had a problem with lecturers photocopying their books. We created a portal with value-add features, and put the ordering-user ID on every page of every book. Photocopying all but disappeared once those measures were in place - people valued and used the bundled services. The institutions that were buying the books were slow to ship IT services. But we were fast. The lecturers started asking us for forums and work-submission and marking-workflow features to help them work with their students, and we did.

(The software lead had an idea that users should be able to just store and share stuff on the site. She moved to Canada during the project to join a new team, and did the same thing for the game they were running. They noticed that a lot of people were using the feature to share photos. So they focused on that, and that became Flickr.)

Newspapers are already well down the road towards this future - as part of subscription you get comments sections, and forums, and dating sites, and wine clubs. Still, I see significant unused potential. Each newspaper should view itself as some mix of bloomberg/twitter/linkedin, and encourage interaction between its members audience.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#407
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complete dramatization. Are you copying 10k lines of code from a licensed code base into your project without permission and using it in your commercial product? Github projects already should strive to use correct licensing, and comply with the license of code they use. There is nothing new here.

You don't understand what this case is about. This is about copyrighting API descriptions. Not copying code, but reimplementing an API that someone else created. Think about how many people created each part of the various web APIs. Is XmlHTTPRequest now owned by Microsoft? Who invented the Blink tag? Who owns which parts of the SQL language? The entire software industry is built on the idea that APIs are not copyrig…

This is why clear copyright and licensing is so important. Unless something is in the public domain, don't use it unless you have permission.

> The entire software industry is built on the idea that APIs are not copyrightable.

The entire open source movement was built on copyright (ala FSF and the GPL). So this doesn't even make sense. It's not anarchy as you imply and copyright has a purpose.

Also, copyright is far more limited than patents. Patents are dangerous because it's like claiming ownership over a mathematical formula that anyone can derive. It's completely different.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#408
post #396
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree the GPL is not relevant to the case at hand, though it does raise the question whether (assuming Oracle wins) the logical conclusion is that the Java APIs are under the GPL/Proprietary dual-license Oracle offers today or that the copyright license itself doesn't apply to the API and a separate license is needed -- in which case I guess it's high time for GPLv4.

Except anti-GPL folks have made GPL almost irrelevant outside Java, Linux kernel, GCC and a couple of GNU tools.

That's because the GPL is not as Hippie as you might think.

Your code is just protected if it gets re-distributed, that's why google never ever has to opensource their "Server OS/Kernel".

Also they changed GCC to GPLv3 which is just a super stupid decision for a Compiler.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#409
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original case for RMS when he created the position for dynamically linked libraries where when apple created an GCC version that had a Objective-C frontend. RMS initially did not think this would be covered by copyright but after talking with the lawyer Eben Moglen he got the following explanation: A judge would unlikely see it as an objective-C fronted as an independent work that is talking with GCC, but rather…

hmm. I had a discussion about dynamic linking with Eben years ago, and my memory (hazy as it might be) what that he implied that it was coming from the FSF, not from him (at least the libreadline argument). But as I said, this was a long time ago. (probably 15 years at least). Apple could have decided it wasn't worth the fight, i.e. the benefits of thei front end being GPLd or not being GPLd in the end made no differ…

I heard that version about Apple and the Objective-C frontend case from Stallman during a talk at Gothenburg if I remember right. He consulted eben moglen and based on that change his opinion. It is possible that Eben consider the decision to still be Richards, which technically it was.

When it come to apple I strongly suspect there are a few things companies like them will try avoid putting lawyers and money on. What is the definition for derivative work and what is the definition of fair use. If you do want to stake money on that you likely want aspects of the case being stacked in your favor, and basing the majority of a product on a GPL code base is not that. A single function call to libreadline would likely be more favorable, but a company like apple would just rewrite such trivial amount of code.

Re: Google and Oracle's decade-long copyright battle reaches Supreme Court

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refactoring is somewhat similar to translation, and it similarly does nothing to affect the notion of copyright. A novel is copyright-able even though it can be mechanically translated into a different language. The fact remains that APIs are creative works. This can also be seen from discussions about APIs in the industry - everyone knows that the Unix APIs are often seen as elegant while the Windows APIs are seen a…

> everyone knows that the Unix APIs are often seen as elegant while the Windows APIs are seen as ugly I think people consider the UNIX CLIs ("do one thing and do it well") to be elegant, not UNIX APIs. UNIX APIs have quite massive (and well-known) warts in them.

Sure, there is a lot of nuance - for example, the Unix CLI is very much seen as a kind of API, and appreciated mostly for API-level decisions (pipe-able commands, everything is a file, everything is text), not necessarily so much for CLI-level features (such as variable handling, looping etc.).

Also, some Unix OS APIs are much preferred over Windows alternatives - e.g. many people think fork()/exec() is much more elegant than CreateProcess(), same for pthreads vs the Windows threading model etc.

The bottom line though is that people have opinions about API design, it is clearly seen as a creative process, it is not rote technicality.

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