Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#41

Post by whoisjuan » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:43 AM UTC

run2arun wrote: post #39

whoisjuan wrote: post #16

Not commenting about the merits of this specific probe, but here is a thought. African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)? This is a rhetoric question, what causes that to not be the case. The article doesn't mention the numbers but when a particular race is disproportionately less re…

It's not reasonable to use the general population as the reference. Should NBA players' races reflect the general population's? There are better references like the number of African Americans graduating with computer science degrees. And if that number is low, that's the one to boost.

Well that's exactly what I meant. I said that something in the downstream equation is broken if the outcome doesn't reflect a similar proportion.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#42

Post by wang_li » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:43 AM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #8

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Let’s say you have hiring events at colleges with say 10% black population. You start focused on colleges with higher percentages, this you should have more black candidates. You can change your recruiting strategies to target a more diverse range of candidates without discriminating on the basis of race.

If you are recruiting at colleges you’re going to have a hard time getting many black candidates, since only 7% of STEM majors are black. Which is an under representation based on their proportion of al college students.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/african-american-majo...

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#43

Post by cjohnson318 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:43 AM UTC

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

Managers tend to take the three most highly qualified candidates and then, "all things being equal", hire the one most similar to them. It doesn't take a big brain to figure out how that has played out historically.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#44

Post by xvector » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #30

xvector wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

I can't tell if you're being intentionally ironic or not. Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. You do realize that this is exactly what marginalized races have to tell their children, right? "You will have to work harder because of the color of your skin, and it might not matter at all." I don't know how to change the fallout of centuries of race-based slavery and th…

> marginalized races have to tell their children [...] "You will have to work harder because of the color of your skin, and it might not matter at all."

Exactly my point - this is basically word-for-word what Asian children are told.

> outside of trying to elevate people who don't quite deserve on merit alone over others perhaps more fit for the job.

And in doing this you condemn others simply because of their race. Ironically, in setting out to solve institutional racism, you merely reinforce it.

> I don't know how to change the fallout of centuries of race-based slavery and the immediate drop into generational poverty,

Provide learning opportunities to the economically underprivileged before important events like college admissions.

> If you don't value diversity, maybe just say so,

I value diversity. I abhor achieving diversity via methods that shift the burden of society’s mistakes onto races that people have decided do not matter.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#45

Post by whoisjuan » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #28

whoisjuan wrote: post #16

Not commenting about the merits of this specific probe, but here is a thought. African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)? This is a rhetoric question, what causes that to not be the case. The article doesn't mention the numbers but when a particular race is disproportionately less re…

Why would you assume that the racial demographics of a particular corporate entity’s workforce should match the national average demographic breakdown? Can you think of any reasons why a specific workplace’s demographics might deviate from the mean that isn’t rooted in unequal opportunity ?

Yes, read my comment as it seems that nobody is fully reading it. I'm saying that if the final proportion doesn't reflect the demographics proportion then there's a bottleneck somewhere down the line that produces less black professionals.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#46

Post by GreenHeuristics » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #8

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Let’s say you have hiring events at colleges with say 10% black population. You start focused on colleges with higher percentages, this you should have more black candidates. You can change your recruiting strategies to target a more diverse range of candidates without discriminating on the basis of race.

If discriminating on the basis of race is morally incorrect then discriminating (collages) on the basis of race is also morally incorrect.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#47

Post by kthejoker2 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #19

This is clearly an explicitly discriminatory practice that uses race as a factor. No one should be supporting Microsoft in this endeavor.

The practice they're using today is discriminatory and uses race as a factor (see: "disparate impact.") ... how do you suggest they proceed?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#48

Post by paxys » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

Yes it is definitely discrimination, but not all such discrimination is illegal or morally wrong.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#49

Post by goldenManatee » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:49 AM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #40

meroes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is that mutually exclusive to creating more opportunities for minorities to apply? And what if the current practices sans AA are already discriminatory (e.g. try having certain natural hairstyles at your interview that don't fit the status quo)...

Setting quotas/goals doesn’t seem like the right approach though. We can try to correct for the biases you name without setting numerical targets. The thing is, there isn’t any correct number to aim for. For instance, some cultures emphasize STEM education/careers and it isn’t surprising or incorrect to see them represented in tech at numbers higher than their makeup of the general population. Setting targets like pr…

What are 2 or 3 “right approaches” for improving diversity in tech? Unless, the view is that practices until now have been right?

Cultural support for STEM comes through parents who themselves are capable of sitting at the dinner table to help kids with their math and science homework. Parents who encourage careers such as mechanical engineering, not just being a car mechanic because that feels most familiar to people they already know.

So what are some “right approaches” for achieving more diverse workforces?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#50

Post by xvector » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:49 AM UTC

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #32

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating how this discourse is always done by upper-middle-class people, who already have all the opportunities in the world in the United States.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

I cannot imagine how you’d think that telling an Asian kid that they are held to a much higher bar for the same opportunities in any way exemplifies “equality.”