Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#21

Post by wheresmycraisin » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #13

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

Don't worry, lower-achieving Asian children will still be able to get into top universities through legacy admissions.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#22

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #16

Not commenting about the merits of this specific probe, but here is a thought. African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)? This is a rhetoric question, what causes that to not be the case. The article doesn't mention the numbers but when a particular race is disproportionately less re…

It depends what you're measuring the proportion against, and depends to such a huge degree that I really feel like we've gotta disregard the idea of detecting discrimination this way. For example, African Americans are only 4% of the population in Microsoft's home state.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#23

Post by meroes » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

And is that mutually exclusive to creating more opportunities for minorities to apply?

And what if the current practices sans AA are already discriminatory (e.g. try having certain natural hairstyles at your interview that don't fit the status quo)...

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#24

Post by xvector » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

wheresmycraisin wrote: post #21

xvector wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

Don't worry, lower-achieving Asian children will still be able to get into top universities through legacy admissions.

Ah, another example of casual racism against Asians. You’re assuming that Asian kids have parents that went to top universities, and to hell with the ones that don’t have an opportunity like that - tough luck.

Affirmative action needs to go, legacy admissions need to go. Make the changes you want by providing resources to the under-privileged regardless of race, before admissions.

Don’t thrust the burden of your societal failures onto innocent children. Asian kids are not the wastebasket for society’s mistakes.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#25

Post by thatfrenchguy » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #13

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

Fascinating how this discourse is always done by upper-middle-class people, who already have all the opportunities in the world in the United States.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#26

Post by gautamdivgi » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

athenot wrote: post #9

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

I used to wonder the same, until it hit me that current status quo is actually NOT the meritocracy it pretends to be. There are many individuals with both talent and potential who are currently getting passed over simply because of unacknowledged negative bias. So it's not about picking someone less talented to make numbers on diversity, it's about revisiting the criteria that make us overlook talented individuals wh…

I think you put it very succinctly. In reality this could be as simple as diversifying the people interviewing candidates and getting down to objective hiring criteria. Negative bias is hard to spot and harder to acknowledge. Making an effort to minimize and eliminate negative bias doesn't mean reducing standards.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#27

Post by sJ646U9k6c6gME9 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:32 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #13

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

Come to the South: affirmative action isn’t a thing here. It’s a breath of fresh air. You’ll find that there are other freedoms that have been taken away from you in the north. All of them are alive and well here.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#28

Post by zaroth » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #16

Not commenting about the merits of this specific probe, but here is a thought. African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)? This is a rhetoric question, what causes that to not be the case. The article doesn't mention the numbers but when a particular race is disproportionately less re…

Why would you assume that the racial demographics of a particular corporate entity’s workforce should match the national average demographic breakdown?

Can you think of any reasons why a specific workplace’s demographics might deviate from the mean that isn’t rooted in unequal opportunity?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#29

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #19

This is clearly an explicitly discriminatory practice that uses race as a factor. No one should be supporting Microsoft in this endeavor.

If the existing system discriminates based on race you're going to have a pretty hard time combating that without using race as a factor to identify who's been discriminated against.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#30

Post by andrewstuart2 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #13

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

I can't tell if you're being intentionally ironic or not.

    Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race.

You do realize that this is exactly what marginalized races have to tell their children, right? "You will have to work harder because of the color of your skin, and it might not matter at all."

I don't know how to change the fallout of centuries of race-based slavery and the immediate drop into generational poverty, outside of trying to elevate people who don't quite deserve on merit alone over others perhaps more fit for the job.

If you don't value diversity, maybe just say so, but let's not pretend that there's an empathy or morality to dropping affirmative action because doing so decreases competition for great jobs among the privileged classes.