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If doctors were interviewed like software developers

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Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#61

Post by johnaoss »

user5994461 wrote: post #28
lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

There's not really a good reason I can think of to require a degree to write software. Sure it shows a basic level of competency, but there are still often graduates who can barely code.

There's also some absolutely incredible developers who come from non-traditional backgrounds that would not even be considered by this requirement.

While it's most likely currently the case where finding a job without a degree is hard, I don't think a hard requirement for a degree should be a valid means of evaluating job applicants.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#62

Post by [deleted] »

b20000 wrote: post #19
TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

exactly - it is time for the computer science and software engineering professions to have trade orgs and unions so those who are qualified can practice the profession and get paid and respected like other professions that require years of college education.

[deleted]

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#63

Post by user5994461 »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #32
user5994461 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs? I can think of quite a few, and I know of other engineers who thought their CS program was vastly inferior to devoting 100% attention to their company, which they could give maybe 33% to due to classes and undergrad life.

To be fair, you should do the exercice, write down the names and check if they had a formal education. You will probably find out that they all do.

The common figures (google/facebook for examples) are typical college graduates from a very top school, who happened to drop in the last year of bachelor or master to found a company, sponsored by their university network and connections.

By the way I was talking having having a formal education versus no formal education and you're trying to move the conversation to dropouts. Dropping in the last year of a top US school (because you were given half a million dollar to form a company) qualifies as having a formal education.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#64

Post by hpen »

user5994461 wrote: post #28
lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

Why would you love if software required a degree? Would it make you feel more special?

I recently got a job as a software engineer without a degree. And I can get plenty of interviews.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#65

Post by tpmx »

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #46
tpmx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their fields are mature. Practitioner fundamentals haven't changed in decades, often not even in centuries.

How do you define mature? Is it about stability? There are newer and more modern methods of construction and engineering and the field is always evolving. Maturity in those fields is about consistency and agreements of best practices enforced by standards and regulations. Software is not mature because it's not regulated. If you want software engineering to mature and stabilize, it needs more regulation.

Yes, construction etc is evolving, but it's doing that as such a slow pace compared to software engineering.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#66

Post by ssivark »

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

This is a good point. Software engineering is one of the most open fields in that it cares relatively little about formal credentials, tests or historical background (what else you’ve worked on). Anyone who has picked up “coding” (etc.) can join in the fray and start adding value, while learning more while doing.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#67

Post by anon73044 »

nemo44x wrote: post #51
TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

All these roles have certain code they have to work to. A plumber can't just go into a home and install something outside of code. Software is generally rather ephemeral and without a code to write or build to. We have "best practices". Yes, some software is built under engineering assumptions - airplane software, etc. NASA has a standard they write code to and software engineers are expected to work within these con…

>A plumber can't just go into a home and install something outside of code.

That is....not true at all. A plumber/carpenter/electrician works to code under threat of losing their license. Additionally your building could be exempt from code for numerous reasons (grandfathered/historical, outside of city limits and no county building codes/etc.) Developers and Software Engineers don't have this threat.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#68

Post by isochronous »

jbandela1 wrote: post #59

Actually, these kind of stuff do get asked at the various interviews to becoming a doctor. * Working for free because it is a passion. Actually a big part of the medical school interview is making sure you are passionate about medicine. You are pretty much expected to be doing some type of medical volunteering on an ongoing basis to demonstrate your passion. In addition, once you are in medical school, interviewing f…

There's a big difference between job interviews and school interviews/oral exams, though.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#69

Post by cameronfraser »

vsareto wrote: post #45
lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

Being less reliant on creds helps newer folks, while more senior folks have to maintain that ability for the sole purpose of interviewing. To me, if you can't substitute a verified credential or experience in place of a technical interview, it just shows they implicitly prefer newer folks.

I've never been asked these questions for senior+ interviews

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#70

Post by user5994461 »

hpen wrote: post #64
user5994461 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

Why would you love if software required a degree? Would it make you feel more special? I recently got a job as a software engineer without a degree. And I can get plenty of interviews.

It would make it much easier to find a job and the salaries would be a higher (assuming one has a degree).

Developers really don't realize how bad they have it. If you have friends who passed to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, they can all have a much easier and longer career.

You will see what are your prospects after 15 years of development, if you were not driven out of the industry, it's grim.

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