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Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

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Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#321

Post by CamperBob2 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #213
dontcarethrow2 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A society that mistrusts its own citizens to a point where all those that whisper to each other are called criminals, dealers, traitors or terrorists is rotten at its core. I mean you said it yourself, dealers. This is why I believe EARN IT will even be celebrated. Generations who accept a war on drugs as sane, did we ever think these people will produce offspring who can think for themselves? The ones who somehow d…

Based on my experience in SF, this appears to just be your typical comment on Nextdoor, but without as many references to the homeless.

One can only imagine how long it would take a modern-day Jonathan Swift to reach -4 [flagged] [dead] around here.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#322

Post by Vinnl »

TrueDuality wrote: post #216
hardly_a_mirage wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today many argue the state has a need to access such correspondence to prevent crime, but such a need is like the need of an addict: nothing good can come from it and the people should not enable these institutions to satisfy an ever growing demand for insight into their private lives. One must remember that democracy is founded on the believe that thoughts and words are not crimes and everyone must be free to expr…

> I feel disregarding the usefulness of surveillance is part of the problem. We should not be arguing that that nothing good comes out of surveillance. It provides your opponent an easy strawman for a hollow victory. Because frankly, surveillance is a useful tool for law enforcement. In this regard I recommend you go look into the evidence on mass surveillance. There have been several reports done on the mass surveil…

Using "it doesn't work" as an argument is a losing battle. If you even manage to convince people of that, best case they'll still be in favour "just in case it does work".

The actual, real point is that they're underestimating the downsides or surveillance, and that even if it would work, it would still not be worth it. That's the only argument that can hold, and the actual reason we're against it.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#323

Post by nix23 »

zepto wrote: post #296
nix23 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publication

what are they going to publish, and why?

>shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers

Because i don't like pressure from a Secret Services...do you?

OK with one exception...Xenia Onatopp

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#325

Post by cmiles74 »

nine_k wrote: post #232
badRNG wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, one could say that extra-judicial torture could have "usefulness" as you put it. We could have a similar discussion of how absolutists on the torture question aren't doing a proper cost/benefit analysis and are "providing their opponents an easy strawman for a hollow victory." I know this is Hacker News, but not every argument requires infinite nuance, we don't need to sit down and examine the pros…

The nuance here is pretty blunt: no matter how useful torture is, it is never enough to legalize it. Same with banning secure private communication.

Is that it? I think it might be "no matter how many times we legalize torture, it will never become truly useful".

Studies show torture is simply not effective. Similar to how surveilling all communication is not effective.

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-...

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#326

Post by franga2000 »

SkyBelow wrote: post #157
nojvek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two parts. 1) Yes, you can build better encryption and privacy preserving technology. That is a technology and adoption problem. 2) There is so much you can do once the law says you can’t encrypt certain kinds of things and if you do, the state will be after you. That is a social problem. Our elected leaders aren’t serving us. Not mutually exclusive. We have to do both. Build better tech, educate others and…

3) People are willing to sacrifice freedoms to protect kids, likely a result of not understanding the complexities of such a nightmarish problem and how much freedom will have to be sacrificed and how little protection will be gained at great cost. Why? Because our society does not allow us to perform cost benefit analysis on a child's well being despite reality giving us no such relief as removing the need for such.

> Because our society does not allow us to perform cost benefit analysis on a child's well being

I hate this sooo much! Having children really makes some people entirely unable to think. I've heard people entirely willing to outlaw any form of encryption to "protect" their children from pedophiles despite the likelihood of getting their identity stolen, bankrupt and unable to feed their children being significantly higher than a pedophile targeting their child even now, and would increase by several orders of magnitude if we suddenly weren't allowed to encrypt things like e-banking and email.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#327

Post by franga2000 »

Spivak wrote: post #265
hospadar wrote: post #215

Things the EARN-IT bill (reminder: supposedly designed to protect children) doesn't do: - Increase funding for child protective services & foster care services - Increase funding for parents (EBT, social work, etc) - Increase funding for schools (comprehensive sex ed, etc) Because our priority is kids! Honestly! Seriously I mean it!

Are you mad that laws against murder (reminder: supposedly designed to protect people) don't include funding for domestic abuse shelters, food pantries, social workers, relocation programs, job retraining, college tuition assistance, and comprehensive sex ed? This kind of rhetoric is so boring at this point. Trying to destroy a proposal via scope creep is intellectually dishonest and does little more than weaken your…

Laws "against murder" != laws "to prevent murder/catch murderers".

Nobody anywhere is challenging the laws again child abuse. What they are challenging is the laws attempting to decrease it or catch people doing it through means that don't actually work and harm other important things.

To use your example, it's like writing a law "against murder" that's written in a way that actually doesn't make murder illegal and also bans seat belts.

In fact, this "scope creep" you mention is exactly how laws work. First you make murder illegal (done), then you start looking at the common causes for murder and find ways to fix those.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#328

Post by [deleted] »

cmiles74 wrote: post #325
nine_k wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuance here is pretty blunt: no matter how useful torture is, it is never enough to legalize it. Same with banning secure private communication.

Is that it? I think it might be "no matter how many times we legalize torture, it will never become truly useful". Studies show torture is simply not effective. Similar to how surveilling all communication is not effective. https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-...

[deleted]

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#329

Post by smichel17 »

Vinnl wrote: post #322
TrueDuality wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel disregarding the usefulness of surveillance is part of the problem. We should not be arguing that that nothing good comes out of surveillance. It provides your opponent an easy strawman for a hollow victory. Because frankly, surveillance is a useful tool for law enforcement. In this regard I recommend you go look into the evidence on mass surveillance. There have been several reports done on the mass surveil…

Using "it doesn't work" as an argument is a losing battle. If you even manage to convince people of that, best case they'll still be in favour "just in case it does work". The actual, real point is that they're underestimating the downsides or surveillance, and that even if it would work, it would still not be worth it. That's the only argument that can hold, and the actual reason we're against it.

Moreover, the argument becomes invalid work as soon as someone finds a method that does work. Which creates an incentive for anyone with a vested interest in this spying to create such a working system.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#330

Post by tenuousemphasis »

hardly_a_mirage wrote: post #156
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #144

Back in late medieval europa most postal services had a back room, called cabinet noir where letters where carefully opened, read and resealed to check them for signs of treason against the crown or cross. These were often abused for what we today would call economic espionage. For these reasons many rich people employed private couriers who traveled to their business partners in person to hand over messages. Those w…

> Today many argue the state has a need to access such correspondence to prevent crime, but such a need is like the need of an addict: nothing good can come from it and the people should not enable these institutions to satisfy an ever growing demand for insight into their private lives. One must remember that democracy is founded on the believe that thoughts and words are not crimes and everyone must be free to expr…

How many terrorists did the NSA's illegal wiretapping program catch? Zero.
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