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Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

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Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#771
post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is insanely complicated. I know it would cost a lot of governmemt jobs to simplify, but, why not just a lottery for a set number? Or a set salary floor? One thing I don’t understand is the ridiculously low “entry level” wage set at 17%. Those are the jobs we need to protect the most to get disadvantaged americans into the pipeline. 17% is the zone of broad mis-classification, like a ‘computer systems analyst’ th…

The complexity of the system acts a deterrent to applications. The point is is to force H-1B's to exist as a lever you start pulling when your business depends on it, not as labor force optimizations for capital-flush companies.

The complexity will only form a moat around the resources and techniques of capital flush companies...

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The higher pay seems like an overall positive change to reduce the prevalence of "body shops" and so that H1-Bs aren't an easy way for companies to lower overall pay rate. I'm not sure that narrowing degree qualifications is a win; high-skill immigration is a significant boon to America's economy, and I think ability to do the work, and American company willingness to pay above-rate salaries (legally mandated now to…

The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.

Point is it's not a sweatshop rate by any measure.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're looking at people with kinda average engineering skills, poor understanding of the American culture, no connections, and grim determination to grind their way out of their old life. I don't think these are the kind of people getting an H1B visa, though. It's usually the super-talented people they hire on H1B.

What makes you say that? From what I've seen, there's an entire cottage industry of cheap, expendably treated labor which forms the WITCH acronym which exists to abuse the H1B visa. I believe that is who they target.

I think the list of top H1B sponsor companies are a more than just these firms

https://www.immihelp.com/employer/h1b-top-sponsor-2020/overa...

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#774
post #237
post #9

Credit where credit is due, this is a good move. The H1B program has been abused for a long time. It sounds like these changes should help make it too expensive for the fraudulent abuse to continue.

It would be simpler to award the limited pool of H1-Bs in order of descending wages, and cross-check with the IRS afterwards to verify those salaries are actually paid. That would kill all the bottom-feeding body shops.

Or auction the H1Bs to employers.

If skilled foreigners accept lower wages because the right to come to the US is worth something to them, then the price of the visa would settle at around the difference in wages. So overseas workers wouldn't undercut US residents. And the perceived monetary value of living in the US would accrue to the government, not to body shops.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Body shops" like Infosys and Tata Consulting that import thousands of H1Bs under borderline fraudulent applications, and then underpay these employees. Just a random link, but the contours of the problem: https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr...

Sure, there are low paid H1B workers, but why is that necessarily a problem? Your link shows no evidence that they depress the wages or employment of native-born workers. In fact, there are many proper economic analyses that show that native-born workers benefit from immigration: https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highsk...

> there are many proper economic analyses that show that native-born workers benefit from immigration

I actually read through two of the "proper economic analyses" in that reddit link since I am interested in this.

One of them wasn't an economic analysis but a summary article: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/contributions-high-.... Almost all of this article is talking about all of the problems with trying to identify the net effects of immigration and how difficult it is.

It has quotes that directly refute what you are saying such as:

"Immigration has complex, sometimes ambiguous impacts on natives. The benefits to the US economy from high-skilled immigration can be accompanied by negative effects for certain groups of natives and positive effects for other groups." Which is the opening summary of the section on effect on natives. Also,

"Borjas found that a 10 percent increase of immigrants with PhDs in a certain field lowered the wages of native born graduating with doctorates in those same fields around the same time by 3 percent"

"Researchers have also examined the degree to which high inflows of foreign-born students affect the educational opportunities of native students. Borjas finds some evidence that an inflow of foreign-born students displaces native, white male students in elite institutions"

The other main article https://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_207GPCC.pdf is more positive but there is no way you can call it a rosey picture.

Clearly, the biggest effect of immigration is on previous immigrants (currently 30% of California): "Foreign-born workers already here sustain the largest losses in real wages, losing between 17 and 20 percent of their real wage over 14 years."

It just so happens that natives (specifically who are college educated) tend to have complimentary skill sets in the years mentioned.

"Except for workers with some college education, whose real wage gain is around 6 to 7 percent, no other group experiences real wage gains or losses larger than 4 percent. This implies that even with the moderate costs of moving, in the range of 5 to 10 percent of their yearly income, native workers would not move (out of or into California) in response to immigration."

That is the support you have that "native-born workers benefit from immigration". It helped college educated natives and the rest of the population wasn't negatively affected enough to leave California. And that's based on migration data ending in 2004 and Californians have been leaving in record droves since then.

Of course, it doesn't mention any thing about the rest of the effect on natives such as cost of living increases due to crowding, strain on institutions (do you want to send your kids to an average California school?), unwanted changes in culture and politics, decrease in social cohesion, decreases (or lack of improvement) in working conditions, increases in inequality or any of the other consequences.

The average US male wage has barely moved since the 1970s during a time of unprecedented levels of immigration. If immigration is such a net benefit to native-born worker, where did those improvements go?

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Body shops" like Infosys and Tata Consulting that import thousands of H1Bs under borderline fraudulent applications, and then underpay these employees. Just a random link, but the contours of the problem: https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr...

Sure, there are low paid H1B workers, but why is that necessarily a problem? Your link shows no evidence that they depress the wages or employment of native-born workers. In fact, there are many proper economic analyses that show that native-born workers benefit from immigration: https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highsk...

One issue is that the scattershot visa applications from body shops crowd out applications from employers who want one specific, highly skilled person.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.

As a New Zealander, this level of pay just baffles me. Is the US the only place where SWE's get paid well compared to other professions?

It's not just software engineers...

Product managers are making 80-100% of what a software engineer makes. So 150-200k even at startups, and upwards from there at FANG.

Graphic designers are making 70-100%.

Even roles like "Human Resources Manager" are making 150k, because they're automatically "management", even though it's just a Bachelor's degree in Business and not a highly competitive role.

"Business analysts" (Excel and specialty tool power users) are making 100k+. No hard STEM degree or brutal interviews required.

However, it really is just in a handful of major US tech hubs that the pay is this high in tech. Outside the major tech hubs the high paying professions are the traditional ones... doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#779
post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.

It should be location based. 170k is an expert in many areas of the country. Maybe something like upper 2% of salaries in the county. A fixed number will never be appropriate for all the areas in the US, and a fixed number will always need to be adapted.

According to this[1], with 140k you're in the top 5% Americans, so you're not far off... but regulating immigrant's salaries on a regional basis seems unfeasible, as they're free to move anywhere in the country AFAIK, just like any other US resident.

[1] https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.

By international standards it is a very high salary.

Billions are in poverty or near-poverty internationally, so that's not the standard I want to set US wages to.
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