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In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

theatlantic.com

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Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#41

Post by sofal »

orib wrote: post #35
jraines wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I know literary criticism is about as popular as Windows ME here, but reading good examples of it can be as enjoyable as the text itself(1). Of course there's always the question of how much authority the critic has -- but it's kind of like having someone with a lot of expertise explain the Linux kernal to you, even if it's not Linus. To your last point -- I feel bad for you if those are th…

I haven't read any especially good literary criticism, however (as I obviously failed to make clear) I do enjoy reading and discussing a book. What I hated was attempting to mash meaning into every word in the story, even when there was obviously none intended by the author. An example I remember was when, in The Great Gatsby, it was mentioned in passing that someone had blue eyes, and the teacher went on and on abou…

I got so fed up with discussing Phineas and Gene in high school that even the mention of them makes me convulse in hatred. That story did not just die while we were dissecting it. Its corpse rotted away and its bones decomposed completely, leaving nothing but a faint stench.

I can still hear my English teacher saying their names over and over again...

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#42

Post by edw519 »

hugh wrote: post #37
marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had any deep face-to-face conversation with them. Try reading the comments on youtube. I'd expect even a car m…

...whether they just have psychological barricades...

I'm convinced that this is the bulk of the problem.

Perhaps I'm still an idealist, but I have always believed that almost anyone can learn almost anything.

Ever think of asking a parent how many times they'd let their baby fall before they gave up teaching him to walk? They'd look at you like you're from another planet. They'd probably answer, "He'll keep trying and falling until he walks."

Think how far ahead everyone would be if all teachers were like parents of one-year-olds.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#43

Post by felideon »

weiser wrote: post #33
hugh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if that premise isn't true? What if some people just suck at everything? I can't see any reason why everybody must be good at something. There's nothing about genetics which says that random genes will combine in such a way as to give them at least one useful skill. How would we go about testing your hypothesis?

Yes, thats true, some people might suck at everything. But that can be managed as long as thats a small enough minority. (we have government welfare for a reason, right? :)) The hypothesis I proposed is too broad to prove easily. Maybe, we can start with a narrower premise. We can disprove "if you suck in English class, you are no good for college". A friend of mine, a maths genius, got a D in History class in colleg…

That's most probably because he didn't care about his History class.

Not only that, in math (and programming, etc), you just "get it" and thereafter practice it to get the straight A's. In History, even if you understand everything, you'll always have to memorize dates, names, people, places, etc.

This why smart students do well in school without having to study too hard, but maybe get worse (or even better) grades than the not-so-smart students who study their ass off and memorize everything.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#44

Post by weebob »

hugh wrote: post #27
tphyahoo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. I, too, taught "literature" to people that could barely read. It sucked. If you can't read, you should learn the mechanics of how to read before dealing with things like "foreshadowing" "theme" "denouement." Just, basic stuff.Otherwise, it's just ridiculous. That's what these colleges should be doing, if they're taking student's money. Not raping them in their vulnerability, naivete, and ability to get a loan.

That's what these colleges should be doing, if they're taking student's money. Oh, and also... if you're going to be claiming to be an English lecturer and complaining about illiteracy, you should probably master the rules of apostrophe placement first.

Two contractions and one possessive; what's your problem?

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#45

Post by emmett »

orib wrote: post #35
jraines wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I know literary criticism is about as popular as Windows ME here, but reading good examples of it can be as enjoyable as the text itself(1). Of course there's always the question of how much authority the critic has -- but it's kind of like having someone with a lot of expertise explain the Linux kernal to you, even if it's not Linus. To your last point -- I feel bad for you if those are th…

I haven't read any especially good literary criticism, however (as I obviously failed to make clear) I do enjoy reading and discussing a book. What I hated was attempting to mash meaning into every word in the story, even when there was obviously none intended by the author. An example I remember was when, in The Great Gatsby, it was mentioned in passing that someone had blue eyes, and the teacher went on and on abou…

I really enjoyed Handmaid's Tale when I read it.

Of course, I didn't read it for school, which might make all the difference.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#46

Post by LogicHoleFlaw »

te_platt wrote: post #21

It is interesting how the author is so cautious about saying "College is not for everyone". Maybe we hear "It should be hard to get a college education - especially if you are poor". I'm a big believer in getting all the education you can. That is not the same thing as believing you should get as many college degrees as possible. There comes a point when it is time to get out and do something with your life. For some…

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.

-- Mark Twain

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#47

Post by neilk »

maximilian wrote: post #23
sspencer wrote: post #8

Excellent submission. That was an extremely well-written and particularly trenchant piece of writing. It is interesting to compare the experiences of Ms. L to various people in their 40s returning to school when I was in undergrad. They too had difficulty with very basic (to us youngsters, anyway) methods of computer use. Many viewed computers with either outright terror or blatant suspicion. I have often thought of…

It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone c…

It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#48

Post by neilk »

marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate?

Yes. 21-23%. Or, higher, depending on how you count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word.

Correct again. The wikipedia article notes the high correlation of illiteracy to delinquency and crime.

However, a counterexample. One of my first programming jobs was to create a data entry terminal in an industrial setting, replacing the giant paper sheets they used to fill out. When it was ready I beta-tested it on selected people from each shift. The interface was super simple, it just asked you a series of questions and you typed in the numbers -- I figured the guys in the plant would at least know how to deal with ATMs, so that was my metaphor. And it worked well.

The best foreman in the plant brought a friend along -- I shrugged and let them take the test together. He interacted with it in a really weird way and required multiple repeats of the entire session before he understood it. I only realized later that he was illiterate. And, let me just restate: best foreman in the whole plant. He knew what numbers were, and he'd trained himself to fill out the correct numbers in the correct spots on the paper sheet.

So that's when I added big icons and pictures to each screen, diagramming what bit of data we wanted at each stage.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#49

Post by neilk »

hugh wrote: post #37
marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had any deep face-to-face conversation with them. Try reading the comments on youtube. I'd expect even a car m…

One thing to remember about Youtube commenters; many of them are not English speakers. Compared to my Filipino or Mandarin, their English is pretty good.

But if you want to criticize what they're saying, that's a bit different.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#50

Post by edw519 »

neilk wrote: post #48
marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? Yes. 21-23%. Or, higher, depending on how you count. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. Correct again. The wikipedia article notes the high correlation of illiteracy to delinquency and…

Nice story, neilk. My favorite system development anecdotes have always come from factory floors. Not quite sure why. Maybe because producing vs. not producing was always so much more visible than in a typical office.
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