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Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

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Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#111

Post by indymike »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #95
metadatabad wrote: post #89

I remember someone from here posting about how the user contacted Feinstein and got the most boilerplate response possible. They honestly do not care about the citizens at this point.

Perusing /r/politics, all I see is astroturfing, and it garners tens of thousands of upvotes. The age of true democratic participation is over. Politicians have no need to care about the ordinary constituent to win elections. They just need to win over the elite, and know how to deliver their scripts.

Actually, reality is counterintuitive. Being in congress is a terrible job where you do not even have time to read 1/2 of the bills you are going to vote on this week. So you count on others to help you. Mostly this is staffers, interns and lobbyists because those are the people who show up and help. If you as a citizen want to make change, then all you have to do is show up, in person and have a friendly conversation with the rep or even just with their staffers. Come with easy to understand stories, and be able to rationally talk about the other side. E.g. I realize that law enforcement has a strong story about encryption, but there is a reason we don't require home, car and safe buyers to give law enforcement a master key. Yes, some bad cops might steal, but what is worrisome is that the bad guys might get the the kes. That's exactly what they are asking for here: a master key.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#112

Post by morelisp »

jariel wrote: post #54
StavrosK wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China sidesteps this issue completely by using home-grown platforms like WeChat of course. How is that different from what the US does? It seems to me an error to think that US companies are somehow the default, and any other country using its own services is sidestepping the issue.

"How is that different from what the US does?" ? They are quite different. Facebook is a social network. On occasion, with a warrant approved by an independent Judiciary, an agency may request on a case by case basis, information relating to a specific concern for which there are specific indications warranting a search - much like the search of your car or home. WeChat is a control, censorship and surveillance netwo…

> The US 'equivalent' would be the CIA having staff at Facebook to intercede in policy decisions and to make sure 'The Man in the White House' has his policy objectives met.

1. You think that US intelligence agencies don't have any staff inside Facebook?

2. I mean, Joel Kaplan is right there. Not even a secret.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#113

Post by NateEag »

mulmen wrote: post #62
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

I think that the key point that should be addressed by those against this bill and these laws in general is: How to conduct legitimate law enforcement business and police investigations at a time when most communications have moved online? The reason the Attorney General and the DOJ want some sort of access to communications is not to undermine free speech and to take over the world, it is because they know that with…

We don’t because it isn’t a problem. It really is that simple. The cops can do their jobs in meatspace.

They used to be able to record phone calls with a warrant.

They used to be able to read letters with a warrant, IIUC.

With E2E encryption now widely available, no sane criminal will use any non-encrypted channel.

So, a lot of methods law enforcement used to find very helpful effectively no longer exist.

The steelman principle says that this is what you need to argue isn't a problem.

Disclaimer: I lean towards the EFF's position on this one, but I can see there are some debatable issues here.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#114

Post by jariel »

morelisp wrote: post #112
jariel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How is that different from what the US does?" ? They are quite different. Facebook is a social network. On occasion, with a warrant approved by an independent Judiciary, an agency may request on a case by case basis, information relating to a specific concern for which there are specific indications warranting a search - much like the search of your car or home. WeChat is a control, censorship and surveillance netwo…

> The US 'equivalent' would be the CIA having staff at Facebook to intercede in policy decisions and to make sure 'The Man in the White House' has his policy objectives met. 1. You think that US intelligence agencies don't have any staff inside Facebook? 2. I mean, Joel Kaplan is right there. Not even a secret.

Good question, but it helps me make my point:

The US (and surely Russia, China) all have clandestine operations within Facebook. This is not part of a 'deal' with Facebook, it's regular spy-craft.

But Facebook does not drive it's policy around the wishes clandestine operatives within the company!

The US and Russia surely have clandestine operatives within Tencent as well.

But the CCP has something entirely different: legit, out in the open entities there to oversee and ensure CCP party policy and Xi's orders are effectively executed. If the Executive team at Tencent didn't 'get with the program' they would be forced out. While they don't probably care about regular operating matters, they do in fact 'hold the real power'. For example, if Tencent decided to not censor certain subjects, action would be very quickly taken.

Not only does the CCP have minders in Tencent/WeChat - they have them in almost every Chinese company [1]. These 'inner minders' are literally the direct apparatus of state control within the ostensibly private economy.

When we talk about 'state control of the economy' - this is literally it.

The US corollary would be Government officials in every single US private company, overseeing that everyone adheres to GOP policy for example. So not just Facebook, but Cisco, Disney, GM, Mattel, CNN, Morgan Stanley, B of A, Goldman - etc. - many of which would also be directly owned by the US government, as of course in China most major banks are nationalized. If the CEO of Goldman doesn't do what Mr. White House and 'The Party' want him to do - he'd be 'out' and someone more 'pragmatic' about their capitalism (i.e. make money but bend the knee where they have to) would be 'in'.

From TheGuardian [2]: "(in Xinjiang) there are QR codes on people’s doors for when the party goes in to check on who is in. If someone leaves through the back door instead of the front door, that can be considered suspicious behaviour." - one of many chilling examples of control that is enabled by private companies, controlled 'from the inside' by CCP staff.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/26/china-tec...

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#115

Post by xiphias2 »

WanderPanda wrote: post #103
xiphias2 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For talking about their personal life? Not really. But when talking about money or politics, I see more people going to telegram. Even the fact that this bill is proposed proves that government lost some of the control that it had over private conversations.

I like Telegram, but I‘m not sure it is the prime candidate for privacy / secure communication. Hopefully Matrix gains traction. Element is getting better but is still full of bugs...

I couldn't see Matrix in the play store, the web page is unusable: I wanted to try it, not ,,learn more''.

I installed Element, but it required username/password pair. I understand that it's a bit more secure than using phone number+email for first authentication, but it makes discovery of friends too hard. It trades too much UX for security, just like PGP.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#116

Post by account42 »

throw0101a wrote: post #99
sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

> Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. So stop being another brick in the wall: stop using the platforms just because it is convenient. For example: * https://old.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/

There is some irony in this being a reddit link.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#117

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #28
monocasa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A search warrant for the endpoints.

And I will refuse to cooperate because I know what my "endpoint" contains, because of course my device is also encrypted and/or will be destroyed if I think I'm about to get caught. Your script kiddie might break at the suggestion that refusing to cooperate means 2 to 5 years in jail but organised crime, or people who are risking a much harsher penalty, won't. These are the real, down to Earth issues, not utopian dis…

Giving the government the option to show up at your door with some random garbage data and asking you to make an impossible proof of innocence or go to jail has some very obvious problems.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#118

Post by indigochill »

toyg wrote: post #73
zaarn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if a mastodon instance admin decides to ban you, that's their personal decision. You can go to another instance. If another user blocks you, that's on them but you have no right to push your messages into another user's home system. If all else fails, you can host your own. It's ultimate free speech as intended and as someone who hosts a mastodon instance, it's a system that works pretty good, there is no notic…

I think tokamak meant they will be banned by law , which sadly I can see happening - it effectively happened already with napster and bittorrent in some jurisdictions.

I can't. Napster was shut down for copyright infringement. Bittorrent is blocked in some places on similar grounds (although, notably, BitTorrent itself is still alive and well - the law enforcement action has been against distributors of copyrighted materials and sites like TPB).

But even if someone really wanted to get Mastodon banned and created a server full of illegal material to give politicians the fuel they'd need, the law enforcement answer there would be to go after that host. The overall network would not be liable because it wouldn't be hosting/distributing the material.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#119

Post by angel_j »

EFF is being disingenuous here, probably at the behest of so many internet service companies, who need your data, and technically own your passwords. They never have, and don't care about your privacy. Don't shill for these companies, not even the ones with good intentions.

Your passwords are still protected by your right to privacy, and the 5th amendment. This bill won't change that. It only forced (at your state's discretion) that internet services give records to law enforcement.

This could weaken internet services, which only pretend to protect your privacy, and then sell it everything else about your "private bits".

It could strengthen privacy by forcing people to get real about their security and take encryption into their own, private hands. Run your own servers, and end-to-end all the things.

But the electric sheep can't see this, and trust too blindly EFF and the same internet companies that they otherwise despise for their use of your data. The time to choose in nigh. Either you let MSFAANG keep the lock and key to your data, full wise that they will give it up for ads and authority, or your realize that the only way to change the web is to adapt and use it differently.

These companies never cared about your privacy. We know this because of their willingness to comply to, for instance, Chinese authority. Ya'll have been red-scared all over again, decrying China as a threat to the world, while your own Government eats away at your own liberties in the name of protecting you.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#120

Post by jariel »

fsflover wrote: post #33
sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

> I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. This is very pessimistic. People still can understand the dangers (and are understanding) and switch to decentralized platforms, which by the way are actively being developed: https://joinmastodon.org .

There is nothing to say that 'decentralized' will be better for us on the whole.

Facebook and Google actually do a relatively good job of protecting our data. They have to live up to specific claims by government, which some people don't like, but otherwise, it's pragmatically safe.

'A million servers' here and there, without process, oversight, 'a lot to lose', lack of transparency, and it might be a whole lot worse for most people.

'Many leaks' at small companies may not have the public and regulatory impact as a 'single big leak' at G or FB.

For 'the tech literate' who know how to manage themselves, it may open up avenues of greater security, but for the net-plebes, not so much.

Think about the freedom that comes with ample food + health and lifestyle choices. Some people are incredibly more fit and healthy than any other people in history, but most of us are somewhat more sedentary, we eat to much, don't exercise enough.

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