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.NET Orleans

dotnet.github.io

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Re: .NET Orleans

#211

Post by pjmlp »

aliswe wrote: post #181
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LINQ for data operations > advanced ORMs like EntityFramework and NHibernate I've used all of these. Rails' ActiveRecord blows all of them clean out of the water.

I suspect you haven't yet seen tge power of LINQ, it's not the chaining that is its point - it's the lazy evaluation. It's not at all limited to DB operations.

First time I saw it was in Smalltalk-80 collections, .NET was yet to be invented:

    (#(1 2 3 4 5 6) select:[:e | x isPrime]) collect: [:e | 2 * e]

Re: .NET Orleans

#212

Post by pjmlp »

danielbarla wrote: post #203
moron4hire wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see: - best in class IDE - best in class debugger - excellent cross platform support - very fast compilers - a robust library ecosystem - no arguments over how to publish or import those libraries - a build system that just works - and all without having to install tons of third-party, fly-by-night projects. I've worked in lots of different environments. .NET is the only one I've been able to leave, come back t…

As a developer mainly in the .Net ecosystem for about 20 years now, I frequently see "best in class IDE" as a headline feature. I've spent the past year with Rider as my main IDE, and surprisingly there have been very few things that I miss from Visual Studio (mostly related to profiling tools). On the other hand, there are several irritations in VS that make it feel decidedly not best in class, for me at least (extr…

- Mixed mode debugging between .NET and C++ (on Java world only Eclipse and Netbeans support this, on Android Google created their own plugins for Studio)

- The architecture modeling tools.

- The GPGPU debuggers

- Data structures visualization

- REPL and immediate window

- Graphical visualization for tasks, processes and their dependencies

- being able to visualize binary libraries in a way similar to .NET ones

- the GUI designers, with live changes support and introspection

- being from the same company that actually produces the OS and dev tools.

Re: .NET Orleans

#213

Post by jbergens »

oaiey wrote: post #177
pjmlp wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked with .NET and Java since they exist, jumping between stacks either when moving between jobs or consulting projects, nowadays I tend to be more focused on .NET. Yet I don't see .NET getting on Java turf as much as many Internet thinks it can. It remains mostly a Windows stack (so many enterprise third party are yet to release Core stuff that is actually cross platform), and there are plenty of platforms…

"Mostly Windows" is a limited view. Most modern .NET developments end up in a docker/kubernetes Linux container. In the first year of .NET Core some shops did Windows deployments but now, that is long gone. But I agree. .NET will not replace Java or any other serious language.

> But I agree. .NET will not replace Java or any other serious language.

I think you have to specify a domain to make that statement reasonable. I think .NET is used more than Go for example. Maybe more than NodeJs also for server systems. Less than Java. If we compare to C++ it is very much down to domains. I don't hear about many enterprises using C++ for server backend code but of course they exist. And so on. .NET (or C#) may already be "leading" against a lot of other languages and then the question is if the others will replace C# or not. And if it will take some of the market from languages like Java which I think it will but not all.

Re: .NET Orleans

#214

Post by pjmlp »

jbergens wrote: post #213
oaiey wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mostly Windows" is a limited view. Most modern .NET developments end up in a docker/kubernetes Linux container. In the first year of .NET Core some shops did Windows deployments but now, that is long gone. But I agree. .NET will not replace Java or any other serious language.

> But I agree. .NET will not replace Java or any other serious language. I think you have to specify a domain to make that statement reasonable. I think .NET is used more than Go for example. Maybe more than NodeJs also for server systems. Less than Java. If we compare to C++ it is very much down to domains. I don't hear about many enterprises using C++ for server backend code but of course they exist. And so on. .NE…

We occasionally use C++, but instead of the holistic approaches that tend to be discussed with everything in language X, we just write a native library that is then safely used from Java/.NET.

Basically what everyone usually advocates as "Python" in performance critical stuff, but we get the the productivity and JIT/AOT tooling from Java/.NET eco-system as well.

Re: .NET Orleans

#215

Post by danielbarla »

pjmlp wrote: post #212
danielbarla wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer mainly in the .Net ecosystem for about 20 years now, I frequently see "best in class IDE" as a headline feature. I've spent the past year with Rider as my main IDE, and surprisingly there have been very few things that I miss from Visual Studio (mostly related to profiling tools). On the other hand, there are several irritations in VS that make it feel decidedly not best in class, for me at least (extr…

- Mixed mode debugging between .NET and C++ (on Java world only Eclipse and Netbeans support this, on Android Google created their own plugins for Studio) - The architecture modeling tools. - The GPGPU debuggers - Data structures visualization - REPL and immediate window - Graphical visualization for tasks, processes and their dependencies - being able to visualize binary libraries in a way similar to .NET ones - the…

Interesting, thanks for the info. I guess our use cases differ enough that the experience is quite different, but I can easily see how if you needed strong C++ support alongside .Net, it'd be a good choice. In my own case, most of the really unique ones on your list are not present or needed, and some of the others (REPL, immediate window, graphical visualisation of tasks, etc) have equivalents which I feel are similar.

I suppose it's always going to come down on each developer's specific use cases and needs, and the average rating of the IDE will be a mix. I've just been consistently surprised with the positivity towards VS in _some_ areas, where my experience was a polar opposite. As an example, working with any sort of "relatively up to date" client side web UI tech (Angular, React) between 2014 and 2018 in VS was an exercise in pure frustration, whereas e.g. VS Code was not. At that time I would not have put VS in the top 3 for that environment, and I frequently wonder whether people just loved it out of seeing the world with MS glasses on, or what.

Re: .NET Orleans

#216

Post by dodyg »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #195
dodyg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Super fast - C# and F# are constantly updated in coherently. They have been on a yearly improvement cadence for the past 5 years. - It's easy to pick up. I wrote 300+ samples for ASP.NET Core ( https://github.com/dodyg/practical-aspnetcore ) - It's really a fun framework to develop in.

> - Super fast For all it's other features, I'm really not sure I'd call .net fast. It's got half decent speed, but it's not "woah that's fast" > - C# and F# are constantly updated in coherently By which you mean C# gets new features every year, and F# gets thrown enough tidbits to keep it looking alive?

Just Google around for techempower benchmarks for speed. You don't have to rely on some random opinion on the web.

C# gets more features every year than F# because C# is still trying to catch up to F# 1.0. F# 5 got good updates this round (https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/f-5-update-for-august/)

Re: .NET Orleans

#217

Post by bobuk »

reubenbond wrote: post #196
FooBarWidget wrote: post #194

I'm involved in a project that uses Orleans. Conceptually and technically it's very interesting. Nodes automatically cluster together to form a big distributed system, and the concept of "virtual actors" make it possible to represent individual entities in the data model directly as actors, without worrying whether everything fits in memory at the same time. However, Orleans doesn't seem to play very well with Kubern…

There is a new package which adds improved Kubernetes integration and fixes the issues you mentioned specifically. It's in beta right now, but we expect a stable release soon. Feel free to contact me and I can help you with running Orleans on Kubernetes

I'm interested, is there any urls to read about this package?

Re: .NET Orleans

#218

Post by u7u7h »

bovermyer wrote: post #97
tmpz22 wrote: post #81

I spent some time learning dotnet core this year and with the slow-grind progress Microsoft has made it really does look like the technology stack might start to replace Java, Go, Rails, NodeJS, over the next decade. You can really feel Microsoft's experience in language development and enterprise software development coming together to provide better ecosystem ergonomics than other frameworks and toolchains. Specifi…

Disregarding popularity, why should I switch to C#/dotnet from PHP/Go/Ruby?

I've switched from PHP/Node.js to .NET/C#. And that's awesome!

Re: .NET Orleans

#219

Post by sparkie »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #195
dodyg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Super fast - C# and F# are constantly updated in coherently. They have been on a yearly improvement cadence for the past 5 years. - It's easy to pick up. I wrote 300+ samples for ASP.NET Core ( https://github.com/dodyg/practical-aspnetcore ) - It's really a fun framework to develop in.

> - Super fast For all it's other features, I'm really not sure I'd call .net fast. It's got half decent speed, but it's not "woah that's fast" > - C# and F# are constantly updated in coherently By which you mean C# gets new features every year, and F# gets thrown enough tidbits to keep it looking alive?

> By which you mean C# gets new features every year, and F# gets thrown enough tidbits to keep it looking alive?

Every new C# version makes interoperability more of a pain. The C# team have no interest in compatibility with F# and will NIH stuff that could've been taken from F# libraries. One of the biggest pain points for interop is tasks, for which there are half a dozen libraries for F# and everyone uses a different one. There's been an open issue for F# to have native task support for years, but progress is slow.

Re: .NET Orleans

#220

Post by davidfowl »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #189
manigandham wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some evidence or more substantive feedback? Because I can show you the techempower benchmarks which have it in 1st and 3rd place at over 7 million rps: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r19&hw=... I built an adtech platform doing millions of requests in 2010 in dotnet. Then I did it again doing billions of requests in 2012. Nothing else at the time other than java could come close with…

In the plaintext category, in almost every other category it hardly ranks in the top 20

Just wait until .net 5 results show up ;)
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