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Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

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Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#41

Post by choward »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #22
choward wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they know that without legal provisions technology can make it impossible to access communication during legitimate police investigations > How do we solve this problem? It's called a search warrant.

Well, no. That's the issue! If you only have peer-to-peer encryption with communications still passing through servers unencrypted then, sure, you can get a warrant to force disclosure. With end to end encryption, however you can show up with a warrant all you want it makes no difference because they physically cannot hand you clear-text communications. Same for encryption at rest. The strength of the encryption algo…

> With end to end encryption, however you can show up with a warrant all you want it makes no difference because they physically cannot hand you clear-text communications.

Well, no. That's the issue!

They shouldn't be executing search warrant behind your back to some their party that happens to be stirring your data. They should execute the search warrant on the person who owns the data they're investigating. If they refuse to give up the data they're breaking the law.

> Same for encryption at rest. The strength of the encryption algorithms we have today makes it near impossible to recover the clear-text data.

Same for encryption at rest. We already have laws for that. Get a search warrant. If they refuse to give the data you have a warrant for they broke the law. For example, if you have something in a safe the cops won't just come into your house and crack your safe. They'll get a warrant first then in theory you'll open it for them or they'll have to crack it if you break the law and don't open it.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#42

Post by tpxl »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #24
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it solved before modern communication tech made it possible to automatically record, transcribe and search peoples private communication?

The key problem is not automation, it's access. It's simple to read a letter. It's not difficult to eavesdrop on a phone copper wire. But it's impossible to intercept communications encrypted end-to-end, or encrypted at rest, considering the strength of the algorithms freely available today.

It's difficult to read every single letter. It's difficult to eavesdrop on every single copper wire. It's easy to store every bit of internet communication. Almost nobody here has a problem with warranted access, but this isn't about warranted access, this is about blanket recording of every user's interaction for no good reason.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#43

Post by choward »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #28
monocasa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A search warrant for the endpoints.

And I will refuse to cooperate because I know what my "endpoint" contains, because of course my device is also encrypted and/or will be destroyed if I think I'm about to get caught. Your script kiddie might break at the suggestion that refusing to cooperate means 2 to 5 years in jail but organised crime, or people who are risking a much harsher penalty, won't. These are the real, down to Earth issues, not utopian dis…

Because criminals will follow the encryption laws? If they're not going to comply with a search warrant why would they stop using encryption? The logic makes no sense. The only people this law will affect are law abiding citizens.

I'm not willing to give up my privacy just because other people are committing crime and the cops can't figure how to do their job. I'm in the US and the 4th amendment says I don't have to.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#44

Post by zoobab »

sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

2020, still a nightmare to make 2 computers both connected to the internet talk to each other.

One day IPv6 will get rid of the platforms.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#45

Post by mjevans »

zoobab wrote: post #44
sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

2020, still a nightmare to make 2 computers both connected to the internet talk to each other. One day IPv6 will get rid of the platforms.

Actual competition for ISPs / access provision is required for this. All consumer ISPs still ban "servers" on their pipes; this is a clear sign of insufficient competition.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#46

Post by mr__y »

Aozi wrote: post #23
mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

I think that the key point that should be addressed by those against this bill and these laws in general is: How to conduct legitimate law enforcement business and police investigations at a time when most communications have moved online? The reason the Attorney General and the DOJ want some sort of access to communications is not to undermine free speech and to take over the world, it is because they know that with…

>How do we solve this problem? We don't, we accept that encryption is part of the modern world and learn to live with it. Because there's nothing else you can do about it. See encryption is just math, and you can't really outlaw or limit how math is used. If we have bad actors who want to encrypt their communication, they absolutely can with or without this bill. Even if Whatsapp/Telegram/Whatever has to provide the…

> anyone can make their own communication platform

and then the users of that platform would simply stand out in ISP logs making it actually easier to spot them. If this platform was a dedicated tool developed by/for a bad actor, then everyone working with/for that actor would be easily found.

Given that, it seems that steganography (combined with encryption) could be a solution with a "battle" between steganographic methods and algorithms to detect them

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#47

Post by mulmen »

sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

And I strongly believe apathy will be the death of freedom.

This is a needlessly negative outlook. Click the link, support the EFF. Educate your friends and family.

Defeatism is not a compelling philosophy.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#48

Post by TeMPOraL »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #26
Freak_NL wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. Of some governments. If you are not one of the five (or whatever) eyes, you probably won't get your hand in WhatsApp's panties; much to the annoyance of those governments (e.g., the Dutch government which in its current incarnation seems to have developed a dislike for end-to-end encryption as well). For American citizens to be spied on b…

> China sidesteps this issue completely by using home-grown platforms like WeChat of course. Chinese avoid the problem of being spied on by their government?

China avoids the problem of figuring out how to spy on US-controlled Internet services, by making their citizens use domestic products instead.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#49

Post by LatteLazy »

nix23 wrote: post #25

What i don't get, yes you can force Facebook to implement Backdoors, but how would you do that with a opensource project like Matrix or even the full opensource Android?

It's only important to break thinks like matrix if you want to catch dedicated criminals. If you're just trying to sway elections and blackmail people then Facebook (WhatsApp) , Gmail, etc more than covers what you need.

Plus if you really really want to know what's happening there, call the NSA. They'll send a few chaps to join the matrix dev community. Or they'll use other tools to access the machines in question. And you can do that to the 0.01% of people that actually switch after mainstream tools become insecure in a way you can't when there are billions of people using encryption by default.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#50

Post by ghastmaster »

> The EARN IT Act cynically uses crimes against children as an excuse to hand control of online privacy and speech over to state legislatures

I like the idea of federal legislature ceding power to state legislatures.

Additionally, it looks like encryption is offered more protections in this bill, Considering federal laws preempt state, especially with regard to telecommunications, I do not see what the risks are with passing this(regarding encryption).

The bill ammends Section 230(e) of the Communications Act of 1934.

> CYBERSECURITY PROTECTIONS DO NOT GIVE RISE TO LIABILITY.—Notwithstanding paragraph (6), a provider of an interactive computer service shall not be deemed to be in violation of section 2252 or 2252A of title 18, United States Code, for the purposes of subparagraph (A) of such paragraph (6), and shall not otherwise be subject to any charge in a criminal prosecution under State law under subparagraph (B) of such paragraph (6), or any claim in a civil action under State law under subparagraph (C) of such paragraph (6), because the provider—

“(A) utilizes full end-to-end encrypted messaging services, device encryption, or other encryption services;

“(B) does not possess the information necessary to decrypt a communication; or

“(C) fails to take an action that would otherwise undermine the ability of the provider to offer full end-to-end encrypted messaging services, device encryption, or other encryption services.”.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/339...

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