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Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

electrek.co

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Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#101

Post by vaccinator »

dimgl wrote: post #88
ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

I was involved in a major car accident that totaled my new vehicle due to falling asleep at the wheel on a highway. Obviously it scared me enough that I'll never fall asleep in a car again, but it was due to sleep deprivation from being up many hours irresponsibly the night before. If you're falling asleep often at the wheel I would recommend you tell your primary. He'll likely refer you to a sleep doctor. I didn't h…

I fell asleep once and only hit tall grass... No damages luckily. I hope that they would stop mowing the side of highways (it is good for slowing you down)

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#102

Post by xedeon »

masklinn wrote: post #51
xedeon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection la…

> Not even close in terms of complexity. You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment. > What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far. Two, tesla's record of…

> You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment.

I am directly addressing your comment about "DMS/DAM". How is that not relevant?

> One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far.

What is impressive to you? That's what the critics said when the iPhone 1 was announced. That's what many also said about electric cars. Funny how the metrics (sales/safety) played out on that one.

> These are just events it might be able to generate, it tells you nothing about how well the events are detected and how the consumer of those events integrates them.

The fact that it can detect those events using a specialized redundant NPU hardware is a far cry from "Driver drowsiness detection" and "DMS/DAM" from "14 years ago". Hence, an apple to oranges comparison.

> What do you think exactly, that other manufacturers just get a magical yes/no blob?

It's interesting you ask that, because they mostly are binary logic if you look at the ECU firmware. Some "Driver drowsiness detection" (MBenz) systems will also just beep at random intervals after driving non-stop for 1 hour. But they still market them as being able to "detect" drowsiness.

George Hotz talked about this many times. They also don't have any firmware code signing whatsoever (esp Toyota) which presents a security risk.

Out of curiosity, which of the DMS/DAM systems do you have experience with?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#103

Post by ogre_codes »

dimgl wrote: post #88
ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

I was involved in a major car accident that totaled my new vehicle due to falling asleep at the wheel on a highway. Obviously it scared me enough that I'll never fall asleep in a car again, but it was due to sleep deprivation from being up many hours irresponsibly the night before. If you're falling asleep often at the wheel I would recommend you tell your primary. He'll likely refer you to a sleep doctor. I didn't h…

I replied in another comment, but it was never super frequent, and hasn't happened to me in years. Just like it sounds like with you, the fear of it happening again has lingered.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#104

Post by ggreer »

cma wrote: post #39

Since it isn't an IR camera with illumination, it won't be useable at night, right?

It's not pitch black inside of the vehicle. The giant LCD puts out some light. There are reflections from your headlights (bouncing off what's in front of you). There are street lights. There are other vehicle headlights. Your eyes have to see stuff for you to drive, so there must be photons hitting your face, and some of those get reflected.

The external cameras have excellent low light sensitivity. If the internal camera is anything like those, I think it'll work fine at night.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#105

Post by xedeon »

chris11 wrote: post #54
xedeon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection la…

Open Pilot's driver monitoring could be improved. After the last update I got a ton of false positives when driving at night. Nighttime would make driver monitoring more difficult, but it's also when people are more likely to be distracted.

I agree. The great thing about software is you can always iteratively improve it over time. As long as you're not reaching the hardware limits.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#107

Post by jlarocco »

fudged71 wrote: post #46

Tesla has a history of using remote diagnostics to snitch on drivers instead of allowing investigators to do their job. It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you. These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might b…

> These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might be flagged as inattentive during an autopilot crash and therefore at fault?

I'm not understanding your point here, and you seem to contradict yourself a little bit.

A driver with a disability that makes them inattentive can't be a "safe driver." Having a disability that makes them inattentive, appearing inattentive, and getting into a crash (autopilot or not), seems to be a "three strikes and you're out" situation, IMO. You'll have a very hard time convincing me the person wasn't at fault in that situation.

Certain disabilities prevent people from driving cars safely. It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#108

Post by megablast »

fudged71 wrote: post #46

Tesla has a history of using remote diagnostics to snitch on drivers instead of allowing investigators to do their job. It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you. These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might b…

Good. Driving is dangerous enough. We should get bad drivers of the road.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#109

Post by dathinab »

gamblor956 wrote: post #67
ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

In some states your medical condition would prevent you from getting (or renewing) a driver's license. You need to talk to a doctor immediately because you're an active risk to other people on the road.

What if?

You need you driver license for your job, without you will lose everything.

You already know that this is not something the doctor can easily help you with (e.g. caused by overwork or because you already visited the doctor).

Sure it's kinda wrong, but most people would just continue driving, especially in countries with no good social net where permanently losing your job can easily lead to it really messing up your live (no health insurance, losing you home, not being able to care for your kids properly, maybe even starvation).

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#110

Post by athenot »

GordonS wrote: post #50
pupdogg wrote: post #35

Comments on the site itself are pure gold as some are pointing out the various (mostly humorous) events that are not being actively tracked with their driver-facing camera. I will try to compile this list below: - DRIVER_ON_PASSENGER_SIDE - DRIVER_MISSING - DRIVER_PICKING_BOOGERS - DRIVER_SEAT_FULLY_RECLINED - DRIVER_SNORING - DRIVER_SHAVING - DRIVER_VAPING - DRIVER_LIVESTREAMING - DRIVER_ADJUSTING_MAKEUP - DRIVER_AP…

> - DRIVER_SHAVING > - DRIVER_ADJUSTING_MAKEUP > - DRIVER_APPLYING_LIPSTICK I've actually seen drivers doing all 3 of these. The shaving (with an electric razor, obviously) I only saw once, but I frequently see women applying makeup and lipstick.

Relevant Mr Bean episode where all these dangerous things are done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYuQctvKNLg
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