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Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

status.slack.com

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Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#131
post #89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is, but a key feature discord lacks is threads. Still it is a huge upgrade from Slack in terms of performance and ease of use.

I am a heavy Slack user but I don't use threads. Threads seem like a confusing mess. Am I missing something not using Slack threads?

Yeah, you definitely are, especially for larger companies. Just from one example: you can tell when a specific issue requires attention based on how many comments the thread has.

So let's say I wake up in the AM and there's a thread that says "how do I use the API for companyservice.example-api.com" and the thread has 50 comments.

Let's say it's a service I support. First, I know there's an issue because a customer required attention to begin with. This is then confirmed by the fact that the thread has 50 comments in it so there are probably documentation and usability issues with this service.

The company I work for and the services I am responsible for deals with internal customers and we use these two absurdly simple metrics to optimize support regularly.

When we first started with certain services that my team is responsible for, we used Slack metrics A LOT. As in, we had spreadsheets with this data and we'd go over them every week. Nowadays, our services are almost 100% self-service and we rarely, if ever, get pinged on Slack for those services because the documentation is optimized and the usability has been specifically designed so that our engineers don't get in the way of our customer's needs.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never used Teams, but if everyone prefers Slack over it, it must be horrible.

Teams is too corporate IMHO. The video chat is really good from experience though. Everywhere I've worked Slack's basically a free for all, can add custom emojis and create private channels etc. Teams was always more locked down. One place even disabled the GIF feature! I know you can lock down Slack too but nowhere I've been has bothered to do so.

> The video chat is really good from experience though.

I have had a few people on calls with poor connection speeds. It degrades horribly by stuttering and distorting audio. It performs worse than a phone call. The best fix would be for Australia to fix its woeful internet.

When you load the web interface it identifies each person with their initials, not full name. This isn’t helpful when you have never met the person before.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#133
post #81
post #60

Is Discord a viable alternative to Slack? If not, why not?

Yes it is, but a key feature discord lacks is threads. Still it is a huge upgrade from Slack in terms of performance and ease of use.

No threads is a feature IMO.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#135

I watched this a while ago, and it did not fill me with confidence for the Slack backend at the time: https://youtu.be/WE9c9AZe-DY

Could someone comment on why exactly this a poor design for their backend? Genuinely curious, I don't have any real world context on systems like this.

IMHO, at scale SQL will breakdown. Even with sharding like Slack is able to per organization. It's why we have great things like Cassandra and DynamoDB. They're designed to solve replication in an easier way than replicating RDBMS iff you know your data access patterns in advance and they're not ad-hoc (which SQL is great at). This is the case for Slack. The typical way to solve RDBMS bottlenecks is to put a queue and messaging system in front of them. This breaks down when your services have bugs (my guess at what's happening).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aws+rick

is pretty good on why some NoSQL approaches are a step forward (perhaps not MongoDB at scale if consistency is necessary https://jepsen.io/analyses). In particular though:

https://youtu.be/hwnNbLXN4vA?t=992

There could be other issues about why Slack is slow. But at Slack scale, you need to be extremely heightened in your database strategy or you should follow the industry and use Cassandra/DynamoDB's built in partition tolerance. Key value stores scale horizontally much easier. B-trees don't scale as easily horizontally past a certain point.

Essentially, good NoSQL DBs have abstracted scale for you (so you don't have to think about it as much). But you have to know the access patterns in advance (the types of queries and updates you'll be running for most use cases), since you need to design your table around these access patterns. RDBMS leaks scaling from the abstraction (you need to use message queues, etc.).

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#136

This backend outage reveals how horrible the Slack UI is implemented. You post a message.... you think it got sent. Then 1min later, it tells you it was not.

The concept is called 'optimistic updating' and the intent is to make the UI 'feel faster' by assuming a positive response from the back-end, and only reverting when things go awry. Given the vast majority of messaging attempts will complete successfully, it's easy to see why the interaction pattern is used.

The converse is pessimistic rendering: waiting for the server response before updating the UI (and possibly showing a loading spinner in the interim).

Facebook Messenger has the best UX paradigm for this I've seen, since it's most graceful in handling the edge case failures while still presenting as optimistic. Your message immediately appears as a conversation bubble, with an icon displaying if the server has received it, an 'X' if it fails (clicking the icon gives you options: re-send, delete, etc), and a read receipt for when the other party views the message. It's a fantastic way of handling the lifecycle.

Slack fails because it doesn't communicate that pending, the-server-hasn't-received-it-yet status, and the fallback isn't as graceful.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#138
post #33

This backend outage reveals how horrible the Slack UI is implemented. You post a message.... you think it got sent. Then 1min later, it tells you it was not.

You can tell it was built for Silicon Valley. The marginally lighter gray tone on unsent messages is only noticeable by design-aware people on fancy IPS monitors. Messages are reordered semi-randomly.

IPS monitors are not 'fancy'. Not in 2020.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#139
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can tell it was built for Silicon Valley. The marginally lighter gray tone on unsent messages is only noticeable by design-aware people on fancy IPS monitors. Messages are reordered semi-randomly.

I frequently send - edit send - edit the same message in an effort to reduce the number of typos. Recently i've realized that this actually introduces more typos -- where a large number of phrases are duplicated or corrected typos reapplied. There's something wrong with slacks operational transform or CRDT implementation or whatever they use to get edited messages to converge

> slacks operational transform or CRDT implementation or whatever they use to get edited messages to converge

I'm pretty sure they have none of that, considering you can only edit your own messages. So what's likely happening is that two quick edits are reaching the server at the same time and overriding each other.

Re: Users may be unable to connect or experiencing degraded performance

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow really? I'm genuinely surprised. I couldn't imagine using Slack without threads, how do you keep discussions on track for certain topics? At any given time I have 30-40 threads going, which means I can easily track conversations. Without threads I'm just endlessly scrolling, or trying to find something, or god forbid relying on Slack's utterly broken search.

The comment below is on point. It's all-or-nothing on threads. If people don't commit to using threads it gets hopeless really fast.

I don't understand, even partial adoption of threads is better than no threads. A simple "please respond in the thread" goes a long way.
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