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Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

arstechnica.com

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Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#321

Post by davewritescode »

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport.

Edit: I made a mistake they've recommitted to supplying engines under the new hybrid rules that indycar is adopting in 2023.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#322

Post by jabl »

Qwertious wrote: post #305
hvidgaard wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teams use less than $50 million on engines yearly. The remainder of the budget is spend on the cars chassis, aero, suspension ect. That cost would not go away with a switch to an electric power train.

Q: Are chassis/aero/suspension innovations relevant to ICE cars? If so, would they still be relevant to EVs given that EVs have different constraints (e.g. EVs have a different weight distribution to ICE cars, as batteries are heavy and non-moving, whereas (SPECULATION) fuel tanks have fuel sloshing around inside like a bathtub)? Formula 1 chasses are way different to standard car chasses so presumably yes, but it re…

> Are chassis/aero/suspension innovations relevant to ICE cars?

F1 chassis/aero/suspension innovations are more or less completely irrelevant outside F1. Switching from ICE's to EV's wouldn't change that.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#323

Post by flyingfences »

alexb7c4 wrote: post #120
GhostVII wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there problem is that it's just boring to watch because they are so fast - it is extremely hard to pass without hacks like DRS, which makes F1 races really boring to watch. And I'm sure most fans would much rather switch back to the v10 engines even though they are more "obsolete", a conventional powertrain doesn't make them any more boring to watch (it actually makes them more exciting imo). And if battery t…

Any suggestions of racing series more interesting than F1? I tried to watch Blancpain, Super GT, IMSA, Le Mans - all of them seem to have almost non-existent level of overtaking (even worse than in F1 imho)

I'm a big fan of rally racing. It's a fundamentally different model of motorsports -- driver vs. course instead of driver vs. driver -- so there is no overtaking at all, but the action is still far more exciting.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#324

Post by romanoderoma »

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227
elcomet wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

> Ferrari got caught doing something illegal so their engine has been nerfed.

just a clarification, Ferrari has not been caught doing something illegal, they signed an agreement on how to handle the engine in exchange of some kind of assurance by FIA that won't happen again.

The story says someone inside Ferrari told FIA that the Ferrari engine might not be 100% legal, FIA started an illegal investigation that also involved spies inside Ferrari's factory and industrial espionage, but nothing illegal has been officially found, it would have meant for FIA to admit they ran an illegal operation.

That's how the new Ferrari/FIA deal was born.

Problem is every team is doing something the regulation does not permit, FIA has not enough people to check everything and probably not even the know how to understand exactly what's going on, cars have become too complex, but if you go slow nobody cares. See Racing Point breaking system affair. It's illegal for sure, but no fine has been issued because they need racing point to be there and fill up the grid.

On the other side, everybody knows that the "over 1 thousand" horsepower Mercedes engine is doing something not completely legal, the new regulation for this year were made explicitly to avoid having engines too powerful and 1 thousand horsepower was considered an hard limit, impossible to surpass, by FIA engineers, yet Mercedes it's around 1,020 .

But admitting that the multi championships winner is cheating, after an investigation that without informants with very specific insider information could take years, would mean casting a very bad shadow on the entire F1 circus.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#325

Post by kube-system »

davewritescode wrote: post #321

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I…

> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar.

Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#326

Post by romanoderoma »

elorant wrote: post #244
elcomet wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Because smaller teams could not afford it. Thus you'd end-up with a handful of teams competing which would probably translate to half the cars you see on track now. Diversity in any sport is what brings in fans and sponsors. Three to four big names competing with each other with no one else on sight could kill F1, or any sport for that matter.

on the other side, if there were only 5 top teams with 4 car each, competition would be much closer than it is now...

Look at how it is now: Mercedes has one official team, one unofficial (racing point) and a third "hidden" team, the former Williams. Where is Toto Wolff going after the announcement that he will leave Mercedes? and why you say Williams? (Wolff has bought shares of both Aston Martin - former Racing Point - and Williams)

That's 6 Mercedes cars, but only 2 allowed to go fast and win.

Ferrari-Alfa Romeo are in a similar situation.

I say let them race and see what happens.

Put the human factor back by having less cars, but with similar performances.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#327

Post by JshWright »

yread wrote: post #235
JshWright wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also just announced that will continue to be an IndyCar supplier for a long while. F1 power units (including the hybrid components) are more efficient than the Indy counterparts. This isn't _actually_ about carbon-free anything... It's about F1 being expensive.

The fuel consumption of the engines is 0.7% of the carbon footprint of F1 races (250k tons of CO2). Just by the virtue of not having to travel around the world all the time Indy has a much lower carbon footprint https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/50382898#:~:text=It calculated the sport's total,Factories and facilities 19.3%25

I specified I was talking about the power units, not the series as a whole (since the power units are the part that Honda is involved with).

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#328

Post by knute »

davewritescode wrote: post #321

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I…

Also because the F1 audience is strongly concentrated in Europe, where Honda's market share is miniscule. Contrasted with Indycar, which is US-based, where Honda has a much larger presence.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#329

Post by JshWright »

mrslave wrote: post #186
Swizec wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers still are international celebrities and they still dice with death. Someone died in an F2 car just last year. But you’re right that it has gotten far safer. Drivers walk away from horrific crashes at insane speeds. And modern cars despite being less powerful post lap times that boggle the mind. The aero is bonkers. Drivers regularly pull 5G laterally in corners. If it weren’t for rules, I bet we’d see corneri…

Good post but I don't understand the comparison. F1 is faster, we get it. The racing in MotoGP is so much better. I caught the start of F1 Mugello this year and I turned off after 7 laps of safety car. (Was the first real lap 11?) It's embarrassing. The amazing additional crash under safety car wasn't the kind of entertainment I was seeking. And what are the rules for track limits in F1? I understand that braking whe…

Track limits tend to vary from ciruit to circuit (or even corner to corner). The race director publishes the "rules" for a given weekend, defining the track limits for the event.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#330

Post by flavius29663 »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #108
serf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 technology is a lot more than just power-trains, I wish people would understand that better. Fuel chemistry, aerodynamics, functional simulation, driver ergonomics, safety dynamics, tire chemistry, metallurgy, analytics, data recording, composites, suspension, real-time telemetry and communication, digital systems management.. the list goes on forever. If the device/technique/procedure wasn't invented by F1, it wa…

Anybody in tech, and especially information technology, should be able to find something fascinating in F1. Winning an F1 race requires a huge amount of data processing, both for the operation of the race car itself, as well as for the simulations of race strategy in realtime. The teams bring enormous amounts of equipment to each race. Obviously a lot of that equipment is wrenches, screwdrivers, and related machinery…

and not only that, but they do impose limits on how much they can use at each stage. I know for example that the computing power for the algorithms that generate the best shape for the best air flow are all equal among teams.
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