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Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

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Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#111

Post by oliverx0 »

ChefboyOG wrote: post #40
emteycz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why there is no Silicon Valley in Europe then

I don't know how much of a role this plays, but even with lower market rates, employing a team in Europe can be an expensive, unwieldy task. Firing in particular seems to be a lengthy, drawn out process. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I can imagine how a significantly increased cost for every bad hire might increase the risk profile of a small startup.

I think at-will employment in the US is key to their startup ecosystem. It makes their market very "liquid", as you can hire fast and fire fast.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#112

Post by chrononaut »

Somewhat related, predatory pricing violates antitrust laws in order to prevent monopolies from forming in markets. Can one consider "excessively generous compensation" to employees a form of market manipulation?

Much like predatory pricing prohibits other players in the market from operating competitively, generous compensation to potential employees would prohibit those organizations from operating competitively if they don't have the revenue stream to support those salaries, and thus making it more difficult to retain talent. In other words, FAANG exists by name for a reason. Those organizations provide higher compensation (or above "market") than the general set of other companies in their space.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#113

Post by dantheman »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #110
dev_tty01 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which is why Silicon Valley is in California, and why attempts to create a startup culture elsewhere have mostly failed. Silicon Valley's origin pre-dates these labor laws. Hewlett-Packard was started in the late 1930's. Silicon Valley's success has much more to do with a critical mass of talent and infrastructure that started a long time ago. The labor friendly laws were created as part of California trying to nurt…

Don't forget a lot of government investment.

There has been lots of government investment in many areas - the question is why was SV different.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#114

Post by unishark »

jariel wrote: post #27
konjin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like something someone who has never been taken to court over IP rights would say. I have, and it cost us $10k to get told "you're screwed." by the lawyer that was suggested by friends as one of the better ones for startups.

Without IP laws, you would be even more screwed. By virtue of your existence, you would be there as little fish literally to be eaten by larger one's. For every time a large company trolls a smaller one, there are 100 times one company decides not to infringe on some other work. For example, I work with a hardware company that has patents. We freely send our products to larger competitors. Why? Because they know we h…

So your company engages in sales practices that would be foolish without IP. That doesn't prove it is the only way to sell, or that it true for all fields. For that matter, why are the big fish able to continually have so much margin in the first place except for patents? Microsoft has made how many billions over control of a narrow programming layer to run other tasks in a loop that's been covered in sophomore year of college since at least the 80s? Competition should destroy their advantages once the market gets so big and mature. Instead such companies capture a market while it's still small, then pivot from hiring engineers to hiring lawyers.

Seems to me that certain industries like software are able to have so much startups and innovation because the legal system is just less effective at capturing and crippling them, despite heroic efforts.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#115

Post by twblalock »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #99
Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

>Which is why Silicon Valley is in California, and why attempts to create a startup culture elsewhere have mostly failed. Silicon Valley's origin pre-dates these labor laws. Hewlett-Packard was started in the late 1930's. Silicon Valley's success has much more to do with a critical mass of talent and infrastructure that started a long time ago. The labor friendly laws were created as part of California trying to nurt…

> The labor friendly laws were created as part of California trying to nurture that success.

Which ones? Because California has banned noncompete agreements since the 1800s, and that is a big reason Silicon Valley ever got off the ground. Fairchild was literally founded by people who left their employer to compete with it directly, and they definitely took their knowledge with them.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#116

Post by vmception »

ma2rten wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Which is why Silicon Valley is in California, and why attempts to create a startup culture elsewhere have mostly failed. I doubt that that is the main reason. Also, in this case it worked against the startup.

Its a key reason.

Mindshare evolves faster because cognitive IP is usuable.

What happened to the startup is the expected outcome and they should have known not to use California’s courts.

The CEO of Hooked missed their shot by declining the first offer. All of their employees were at-will and could always have been extended offers which is what subsequently happened.

Press F to pay respects.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#117

Post by Waterluvian »

mason55 wrote: post #101
Waterluvian wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to work law is really good in Ontario. Heck I had a CEO who threw a tantrum because I took my skills to another company (that isn’t even a competitor) and demanded I quit with threats. My lawyer basically laughed at him and he went away. Ontario’s tech sector is growing a lot but hopefully the salary issues will improve.

Just FYI that’s not what right to work is. You’re talking about at will employment. Right to work means they can’t make you join the union.

Thanks. I mean the laws and precedent that made it clear my non compete is unenforceable based on the idea that I have a right to... work.

Oh hey and there’s the name right there!

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#118

Post by ytwySXpMbS »

barry-cotter wrote: post #108
pm90 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A first step might be to expand the European University system to handle the influx of Graduate students that were previously headed to the US. Give funding, poach the frustrated non tenured profs from the US. Essentially reverse what happened during and after WW2, when the anti semitism caused Germany and then mainland Europe to lose all the amazing talent to the US.

> A first step might be to expand the European University system to handle the influx of Graduate students that were previously headed to the US. Give funding, poach the frustrated non tenured profs from the US. There is no European university system. There’s a French one, a German one etc. They all pay much, much worse than their US equivalent because they’re substantially poorer than the US. Remember, if Germany wa…

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from. Assuming by “poorer” you mean nominal GDP, Germany would be the richest state in the US.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#119

Post by libraryofbabel »

mywacaday wrote: post #67
0xy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Europe is not at all competitive for tech talent. Fresh graduates earn significantly more money in America than senior-level developers in Europe, with the quasi-exceptions of London and Switzerland (neither in the EU). Why would European developers allow themselves to be shafted out of millions of dollars by staying in Europe?

London is still in th EU, maybe not for much longer but still there.

This is false.

The UK left the EU on 31 January. It is now in a “transition period” where it follows EU rules and trade is the same. But it is out of the EU. If you’re going to make factual corrections please check your facts.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#120

Post by resu_nimda »

dctoedt wrote: post #64
seieste wrote: post #5

D.C., could you explain what part of this judgment you disagree with? Employees should have the right to switch companies and leaving a company shouldn’t bar employment in your field. Hooked is relying on misrepresentation and vague notions of trade secretes — If there were actual concrete IP theft (or even something like customer lists or proprietary technology) wouldn’t their lawsuit have focused on that?

> D.C., could you explain what part of this judgment you disagree with? Employees should have the right to switch companies and leaving a company shouldn’t bar employment in your field. Where'd you get the idea I disagree with it? I had to word the post to fit within the HN character limit.

I also inferred that sentiment from the title. "Strapped" paints the startup as a struggling underdog, "poaches" paints Apple as a big bully, "NP" paints the court as indifferent to the plight of the little guy.

"Court approves Apple's hiring of startup's engineers after failed acquihire" is the most neutral phrasing I can come up with. "Startup CEO tries to sell engineers to Apple" would be a bit flippant and biased the other way, but seems to capture the most intriguing bit.

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