Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#71

Post by ladberg » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:14 AM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #38

MHordecki wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they have yearly CPU instruction limits This sounded too ridiculous to me, so I started digging. Lo and behold, [1]. Appendix 8, sections 2 and 3. The entire thing is a fun read, with pearls such as: in the case of an Intel CPU with either the Sandybridge or Ivybridge chipset where the competitor chooses not to exploit the AVX feature; the competitor must explicitly declare and be able to demonstrate that they are…

CPU? wouldn't f1 teams be using GPU for their CFD work

That would be more efficient, but GPUs were banned to level the playing field between extremely rich and slightly less extremely rich teams.

Of course, the people who made that rule probably just looked at the cost of a GPU vs the cost of a CPU without realizing that per operation GPUs are much cheaper to run.

EDIT: I originally heard this on Reddit and after looking I can't find any real sources, so this could be inaccurate.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#72

Post by lethologica » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:15 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #58

x87678r wrote: post #16

F1 isn't what it used to be last century. Races were nail biting epic contests, cars visibly improved every season, drivers were international celebrities dicing with real life ending risk, and passionate fans filled the stadiums. Modern races are just a procession of the same few people each weekend in global rich social events.

Why do they make all the cars the same? Why not have a maximum size or something like that and let people innovate within that to do whatever they want? Why the 'formula'?

This is what I've always been curious about. I've never been a massive F1 fan or followed it closely, but I've always viewed it as being the absolute pinnacle of what can be achieved with a racing machine. So to me, it seems odd to add all of these extra rules and regulations that may stifle reaching even further.

I'd love to see a motorsport where there was maybe one rule where you have a budget within $X amount of dollars, but other than that, go nuts, come up with innovative new technologies and racing methods and see what happens.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#73

Post by mhh__ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #11

F-1 has always baffled me as a sport. Not that it's inherently bad or boring, just that there are so many motor sports that make it look that way. Same with NASCAR. I don't understand how an audience for those exists when, for example, rally races exist.

Rally cars don't have the sex appeal that a F1 car does, and put bluntly neither does the sport itself. I do enjoy watching rallying but Formula 1 is so much more interesting to me both as someone who can understand the vehicle dynamics and a fan of racing.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#74

Post by mhh__ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:19 AM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #16

F1 isn't what it used to be last century. Races were nail biting epic contests, cars visibly improved every season, drivers were international celebrities dicing with real life ending risk, and passionate fans filled the stadiums. Modern races are just a procession of the same few people each weekend in global rich social events.

Literally everything you've said is still true. Formula 1 stopped being like that in the 70s at the latest. Mercedes are too dominant, but there is nearly always a dominant team in the history of F1. The MP4/4's records were set in the 80s for god’s sake.

A Minardi won a race this year (They're called Alpha Tauri now)

Don't look back with rose tinted spectacles.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#75

Post by nemo44x » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:19 AM UTC

Auto racing will just never be the same. I don’t even think EV racing will evolve the sport. The golden days of auto racing involved real innovation like creating super chargers, turbos, certain efficiencies, and improvements in potting, etc. There was a time when we just didn’t know what could be done to build an engine that could run near the edge without blowing.

I don’t think EV will ever have its equivalent. Just not the same as taking an ICE and tweaking it through mechanical engineering to find new performance gains.

End of an era but that’s progress. Maybe fully mechanical cars will find a way to exist as a sport. But I imagine people will lose interest over a few generations. But then, horses still race.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#76

Post by gpm » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #32

JshWright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, Formula E?

Formula E also has a monopoly on FIA sanctioned all-electric single seater racing for 25 seasons, so F1 cannot go full EV until 2039 at minimum unless contracts get renegotiated. Will be interesting to see what happens to F1 as a result, Indycar as well. Petrolheads can whine about electric racing all they want, but engine suppliers are losing interest in making gas engines when the consumer market is in a shift away…

Could the Formula One Group just abandon the FIA or is that also forbidden by contract?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#77

Post by mhh__ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #43

Swizec wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers still are international celebrities and they still dice with death. Someone died in an F2 car just last year. But you’re right that it has gotten far safer. Drivers walk away from horrific crashes at insane speeds. And modern cars despite being less powerful post lap times that boggle the mind. The aero is bonkers. Drivers regularly pull 5G laterally in corners. If it weren’t for rules, I bet we’d see corneri…

No you wouldn't. Cornering G is lateral. That doesn't pull blood from the brain. Not to say it's exactly FUN, but it won't cause you to black out.

And Braking G is along the longitudinal axis of the driver, they could red-out.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#78

Post by sumanthvepa » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The metaphorical comparison with XB-70 ends when performance is concerned. F1 hybrids are still far superior to pure battery electric vehicles. So F1 is essentially stuck in the upper-left corner of the price-performance envelope. They are too good to move to pure electric, but their tech is obsolete for road cars. In a few years battery electric vehicles will get to the performance levels of current F1 hybrids, but by that time the mantle of the pinnacle of auto-racing will have been taken by FormulaE. Not a good place for F1 to be. In effect Tesla killed F1.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#79

Post by mhh__ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:23 AM UTC

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #48

MHordecki wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they have yearly CPU instruction limits This sounded too ridiculous to me, so I started digging. Lo and behold, [1]. Appendix 8, sections 2 and 3. The entire thing is a fun read, with pearls such as: in the case of an Intel CPU with either the Sandybridge or Ivybridge chipset where the competitor chooses not to exploit the AVX feature; the competitor must explicitly declare and be able to demonstrate that they are…

Wow. The level of detail there is crazy. They even have an equation governing the supply of car power units. See Appendix 9, section b.

If you think the level of detail is crazy you need to understand how crazily some teams will cheat.

The details still aren't out yet but Ferrari literally managed to cheat the fuel flow sensor last year - this is probably the most important rule in the sport, for the cars at least.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#80

Post by freeflight » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:25 AM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #41

Swizec wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers still are international celebrities and they still dice with death. Someone died in an F2 car just last year. But you’re right that it has gotten far safer. Drivers walk away from horrific crashes at insane speeds. And modern cars despite being less powerful post lap times that boggle the mind. The aero is bonkers. Drivers regularly pull 5G laterally in corners. If it weren’t for rules, I bet we’d see corneri…

Agreed speeds are insane, but its less interesting than when people were overtaking more. The rich people bit was a dig at Abu Dhabi & Azerbaijan which seem mostly empty.

> The rich people bit was a dig at Abu Dhabi & Azerbaijan which seem mostly empty.

Tho that's not really a new thing, it's been more of a "rich people" sport for a while, at least for watching live, as races often happen in rather "exclusive" and expensive locations like Monte Carlo.

That's why the people watching F1 live, shown during broadcasts, usually look nothing like football fans but rather like rich people on an expensive vacation, at least that's what stuck most with me from watching a bit of F1 in the 90s.