Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

infosecurity-magazine.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 131 posts

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#81

Post by dragonwriter »

nip180 wrote: post #47
GekkePrutser wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those of the rest of the world. Especially those of us in X eyes countries.

Hey may have defended the rights of people in the rest of the world, but only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution.

> only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution.

Untrue, though this is a popular myth. There are a few Constitutional rights explicitly restricted to citizens (voting is the big one), but pretty much all the rest are rights of people generally that the government (either federal or state, depending on which Constitutional provision is involved) is restricted from intruding on. Both the plain text and the case law of the Constitution is inconsistent with this “only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution” view.

There is some case law that certain actions by the US government affecting noncitizens outside of the US are not limited by certain provisions of the Constituion that would affect actions that were either within the US or directed at citizens (or, at least, that such actions are not subject to legal process in the federal courts, which amounts to the same thing), but the particular exception is quite narrow.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#82

Post by lern_too_spel »

runamok wrote: post #71
georgeplusplus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. I think he’s a tool of Russia and got paid to tarnish America and diplomacy worldwide.

The fact that the secret program he leaked was ultimately determined to be unlawful says he is vindicated and should be pardoned. "A National Security Agency (NSA) surveillance program has been ruled unlawful, seven years after it was exposed by whistleblower Edward Snowden." https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54013527

He leaked a lot more US government programs than that one, and all of those were legal. Had he only leaked phone metadata collection, he would have a case.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#83

Post by Supermancho »

gambiting wrote: post #56
Supermancho wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> International spying on your allies, including corporate espionage against countries like Germany. I expect the US to be spying on ALL nations, not just enemy-of-the-week or communist ones.

Expect, as in - you want them to spy? Or just accept it as an inevitable fact of life?

It's both because it's good policy. I "want" insofar as I would expect any government to maximize our position via basic game theory. It's inevitable because those who maximize their position are going to be the dominant player over time.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#84

Post by tsimionescu »

mijkal wrote: post #75
nip180 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey may have defended the rights of people in the rest of the world, but only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution.

This assertion is counter to the core principles of the nation's founding — that one's rights are innate, and the constitution simply places limits on the government regarding what can be regulated and to what extent. That means we recognize that every person of any nationality has the right to free speech, fair and speedy trials, no torture, etc. If you mean other nations don't recognize the same rights, then I gran…

That's your interpretation, but the same text has been considered perfectly compatible with chattle slavery for more than a hundred years, starting immediately as it was written. So I don't think it's as clear cut as the text might make you think.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#85

Post by tsimionescu »

dragonwriter wrote: post #81
nip180 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey may have defended the rights of people in the rest of the world, but only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution.

> only American citizens have rights protected by the US constitution. Untrue, though this is a popular myth. There are a few Constitutional rights explicitly restricted to citizens (voting is the big one), but pretty much all the rest are rights of people generally that the government (either federal or state, depending on which Constitutional provision is involved) is restricted from intruding on. Both the plain te…

And yet, the following have been considered compatible with the rights of all people: slavery, torture of non-citizens, assassination of non-citizens on suspicions of a crime, assassination of citizens on external territory on suspicions of a crime.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#86

Post by pengaru »

outoftheabyss wrote: post #77
pengaru wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're confusing Assange and Snowden.

Amazing how Assange suddenly became a Russian asset after 2016, this charge never appeared when he spent years going after the Bush admin

The Special Counsel investigation publicizing a Russian connection to Wikileaks' release of Hillary Clinton's damaging emails was far more recent than 2016 [0]. For myself, and I presume much of the general public, that would be the point in time where awareness of Assange's role in an alleged Russia-involved conspiracy manifest.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Counsel_investigation_...

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#87

Post by tsimionescu »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #76
danarmak wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if residents have a special status. But the DOJ appears to claim that Congress could pass a law establishing religion for foreigners, demand other countries extradite all their citizens, and sentence them in the US for not following this law.

“Congress shall make no law” seems pretty comprehensive.

The problem is usually with the definition of 'people'. Slaves, for example, did not qualify for a long time. 'People' living outside the country are not generally considered to be covered (see the routine open assassination of people accused of 'terrorism').

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#88

Post by jbay808 »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #74
jbay808 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International spying on your allies , including corporate espionage against countries like Germany. That angered your allies much more than it endangered them. Whistleblowers like Snowden are the mechanism that keeps that spying from happening in the first place. Edit -- And yes, this harmed America by undermining the trust that those countries had in it. But to be clear, it wasn't Snowden's disclosure that broke tha…

> " And yes, this harmed America by undermining the trust that those countries had in it " That seems unlikely. At the international level, it's well understood that alliances aren't permanent as de Gaulle's famous quote " [Nations have] no friends, only interests. " illustrates. For example, Russia, Japan, and the US were allies during the First World War but were on opposing sides in the Second.

Defecting against everyone you meet is a losing strategy in an iterated multi-actor prisoner's dilemma. Establishing and maintaining mutual trust, to cooperate with those who are willing to cooperate with you, is in a nation's interests.

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#89

Post by pengaru »

CalChris wrote: post #55
pengaru wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're confusing Assange and Snowden.

Something about Snowden fleeing to Russia makes that confusion difficult to accept.

Assange and Snowden are widely known to be conflated among the general public. [0]

I don't personally think either of these people are or have ever knowingly been Russian assets.

But that's not the point. Particularly after the Special Counsel investigation, Assange/Wikileaks has been portrayed quite publicly through a credible federal investigation as being used as a puppet for distributing Russian-acquired documents.

Snowden clearly ended up in Russia for lack of options when fleeing HK. There's never been any credible allegations of a Russian affiliation outside of that AFAIK.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M&t=8m

Re: Time to Pardon Edward Snowden?

#90

Post by jbay808 »

Supermancho wrote: post #83
gambiting wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expect, as in - you want them to spy? Or just accept it as an inevitable fact of life?

It's both because it's good policy. I "want" insofar as I would expect any government to maximize our position via basic game theory. It's inevitable because those who maximize their position are going to be the dominant player over time.

(I posted a similar comment elsewhere but it's short, and relevant here too).

That's not what game theory says. Defecting against everyone you meet is a losing strategy in an iterated multi-actor prisoner's dilemma. Tit-for-tat does much better. Establishing and maintaining mutual trust, to cooperate with those who are willing to cooperate with you, is in a nation's interests.

Post reply on HN