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Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

deccanherald.com

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Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#341

Post by approxim8ion »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87
joshuaissac wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's FY2019 revenue in India was ₹10,538.3 crore ($1.50 billion),[1] which is 0.58% of its global revenue of $260.17 billion.[2] India has a growing smartphone market, but it does not yet have a large market for Apple products. 1. https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/news/apple-india-s-reve... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/265125/total-net-sales-o...

I’d think it would be a pretty key area for expansion though, just given the sheer size of India’s population and their growing wealth.

I don't know, the growing wealth is still a good way off from becoming a ground for Apple to become very popular. Especially since the market has been heavily invested in Android devices due to the pricing disparity, it's a big jump and likely not one that can be alleviated simply by waiving some of the extra costs by manufacturing locally.

The most popular phones sold in India are low-midrange devices in the USD $80-400 range. It'll take quite a push from both the public and Apple to bring sentiment to a situation where Apple products have appeal. As it stands I'm not sure the demand will ever be there.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#342

Post by AnthonyMouse »

zepto wrote: post #306
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That obviously depends on which governments and what the governments do. A US antitrust ruling that Apple can't constrain the user from installing apps from competing stores while Apple is still selling the device and not loading it up with crapware by default is very different than a requirement from China or India to install the government's store as root on everybody's phone from the factory. The difference being…

Actually there is no difference. As soon as Apple is constrained, everyone else who can impose requirements will do so. This idea about choosing which stores you trust, is a complete fantasy. Even in the most free market of countries, you’ll end up with a small set of corporations you don’t trust as he only viable stores.

> As soon as Apple is constrained, everyone else who can impose requirements will do so.

But that's precisely where the distinction matters -- there can be a hundred stores with onerous requirements, but if there is nothing requiring you to use any of them, you don't.

It's obviously a problem if you're required to use a specific store instead of the one you want to, but that's the problem today -- it's the thing requiring them to allow anyone to open a store would address. If Apple is the only store on your device and the government pressures Apple to reject an app you want, you can't get it. If anyone can open a store and the government pressures Apple to reject an app you want, you get it from a store that government can't pressure, or side load it.

Allowing someone to use another store and forcing them to use it are independent actions.

> Even in the most free market of countries, you’ll end up with a small set of corporations you don’t trust as he only viable stores.

How does that make any logical sense? We already see on Android that there exist stores operated by trustworthy entities, like F-Droid. Opening up to other stores wouldn't cause Apple's store to cease to exist, if you trust them. And if you don't then having alternatives available still wouldn't be any worse than the status quo.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#343

Post by oauea »

atombender wrote: post #250
oauea wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just don't install them. You can make these decisions yourself, you don't need Apple to make them for you.

The problem is transparency — nobody has perfect information about what apps do. People on HN will be better informed than most, but do you think your mom or dad will know not to install certain apps that might be widely known (except to them) to be predatory? What about malicious apps that, say, steal credit card information?

Yeah, they know not to install random crap, they're not dummies.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#344

Post by jolux »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #337
jolux wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tor Browser is terrible for security, and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did. I may have the timeline wrong though. As for Brave, well. They have a different business model but I’m not entirely clear on what their technological innovation is?

> Tor Browser is terrible for security [citation needed] The exit node can't do anything your ISP can't. Meanwhile you can choose the exit node, which you often can't for your ISP, which means you can choose one operated by someone you trust. And even if you don't, what are they going to do to a TLS connection? > and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did Tor Browser is based on Fir…

>And even if you don't, what are they going to do to a TLS connection?

You misunderstand me. Tor Browser is based on Firefox ESR, which means it lags with security updates: https://medium.com/@thegrugq/tor-and-its-discontents-ef51648...

Tor itself is not what I was referring to, although it has its problems as well, mainly that it's extremely identifiable. Tor is not a good idea for most people to use full-time.

The rest of this doesn't really answer my question about Safari vs Firefox, and I'm pretty much uninterested in appeals to Tor Browser as something that should be universally adopted.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#345

Post by zepto »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #340
zepto wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Except that the stores have to compete with each other, so who is going to choose the one with all the apps that trade user data? Certainly not the users who are allegedly patronizing Apple only because they don't want that.” They will when many of the key apps are only available through the privacy agnostic stores.

How are the "key apps" going to move there when the users refuse to install apps from there? If it was so easy, why don't all the "key apps" do this already and stop using Apple's store so that everybody has to switch to Android?

Obvious reasons:

Key apps have zero incentive to try to get people to switch to Android. Even if there was, there is a prisoners dilemma - it would only work if many of them switched at once.

This is absolutely nothing like the situation with multiple app stores, where not all apps have to switch at once.

Most users do not refuse to use Facebook. New people take up smoking daily. The idea that users would ‘refuse’ to buy apps from a store run by Facebook (or worse) is an idealistic fantasy.

As for why apps would switch to other stores? Paid exclusives, just as with every other media type - TV, Movies, Books, Podcasts.

People who have hits get paid a huge premium for exclusives, because it forces customers to use the new store or platform.

Epic is already buying exclusives. Amazon and Facebook, and TenCent et all would obviously do so too.

The only choice for users would be to install all of the stores.

The only choice for developers will be to deal with all of the stores.

Apps will be the new TV. Costs will rise. Almost everything will be funded by the store networks.

The long tail of small developers will be absolutely decimated.

Users won’t care and will barely remember the difference. The ten years of Apple’s store will be a quaint memory from the early days.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#346

Post by AnthonyMouse »

zepto wrote: post #345
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are the "key apps" going to move there when the users refuse to install apps from there? If it was so easy, why don't all the "key apps" do this already and stop using Apple's store so that everybody has to switch to Android?

Obvious reasons: Key apps have zero incentive to try to get people to switch to Android. Even if there was, there is a prisoners dilemma - it would only work if many of them switched at once. This is absolutely nothing like the situation with multiple app stores, where not all apps have to switch at once. Most users do not refuse to use Facebook. New people take up smoking daily. The idea that users would ‘refuse’ to…

> Key apps have zero incentive to try to get people to switch to Android.

Google Play is less stringent about privacy than Apple (right?), so the same incentives would exist.

> Even if there was, there is a prisoners dilemma - it would only work if many of them switched at once.

Which would still be true with alternate stores. Nobody wants to be the first to switch to a shady store that customers don't trust and abandon the one they do.

> Most users do not refuse to use Facebook. New people take up smoking daily. The idea that users would ‘refuse’ to buy apps from a store run by Facebook (or worse) is an idealistic fantasy.

Then what's stopping them all from switching to Android right now? Why haven't they done it already?

> As for why apps would switch to other stores? Paid exclusives, just as with every other media type - TV, Movies, Books, Podcasts.

That only gets the user to use the store to install one app which they're already familiar with. It doesn't require anyone to trust the same store for apps they're not familiar with. For that to happen the store would still have to establish a reputation for trustworthiness, which would require it to not carry shady apps.

> The only choice for users would be to install all of the stores.

> The only choice for developers will be to deal with all of the stores.

These are obviously contradictory positions. If all the apps were in all the stores, a user would only need to use one of them (presumably the one they like the best). If all the users had all the stores, a developer would only need to be in one of them (presumably the one users like the best, to maximize competitive advantage over alternative apps).

The stores still have to compete with each other for users.

None of your conclusions make any sense. Competition reduces costs because all else equal people will choose the alternative which takes a smaller profit margin and passes that money to the user or the app developer, which either makes apps less expensive for the same amount of developer revenue, or increases developer revenue at the same price to the user which leads to more and better apps.

Monopolies are abusive and inefficient, so removing them makes things better. It's why we have antitrust laws.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#347

Post by parasubvert »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #303
parasubvert wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the device wasn’t connected to the global telephone network then you’d have a point. Mobile carriers and governments have never allowed just “anything“ installed on phones. > I think the concern is it didn't evolve naturally.. it evolved to this configuration due to the whims of a few companies in strong monopoly positions. What’s “natural?” Markets are not created by god, they’re created by customers. Apple didn’…

> Want a better situation? Build a new and better ecosystem. The problem is it's chicken and egg. To get users you need apps, to get app developers you need users. To overcome that you don't just need something which is as good as the status quo, you need something so much better that people will switch to it despite the apps conundrum. Apple got there by being first to market with a modern smartphone. Google got the…

> The problem is it's chicken and egg. To get users you need apps, to get app developers you need users.

I didn't say it would be easy. :-) It is a huge can of worms to declare the current smartphone + app store design as a public utility to be preserved for 50 years, when this industry is barely 12 years old at this point.

> To overcome that you don't just need something which is as good as the status quo, you need something so much better that people will switch to it despite the apps conundrum.

Yes. I don't think it will come from "the smartphone" market which has already been won. It will come by some disruptor that eats into adjacencies: AR, VR, wearables, etc. Apple actually has a good chance to retain their position because everyone has underestimated how important Apple Watch could become, plus their investments in AR.

> Who do you propose has the resources to unseat the incumbents at this point?

Alibaba group, Facebook, Valve, Tencent, Huawei, Amazon, and Microsoft.

> That's a big part of the problem -- the users lack visibility into the inner workings. How many iPhone customers even realize that competing stores are prohibited, or that Apple bans things they may want?

I think most users are broadly aware that Apple control things and take a cut. Most people have to deal with Kindle or Audible and having to buy that content via a different app or the browser. IMO the current legal argument is broadly not about banned apps, it's about profit margins.

> The developers can't even show the users how much they're paying, or offer discounts for purchases made through other channels, because Apple prohibits it.

So does every other platform provider though. Publishers and retailers can't discount Nintendo switch games unless Nintendo approves it. This goes back 40 years to Atari.

> And the lack of user awareness is another impediment to establishing a new competing platform.

I think the bigger issue is if users actually prefer the current curated arrangement.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#348

Post by parasubvert »

jariel wrote: post #312
parasubvert wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the subtext of the other Epic v. Apple threads, this is the point: government is somehow going to do a better job than Apple or Google. That or government will mandate the Libertarian Wild West on our phones where anyone can install anything from any store. Mobile operators alone will balk at that. This is a fever dream from a new generation of publishers and developers that have to learn how this worked…

"Apple threads, this is the point: government is somehow going to do a better job than Apple or Google." No, it's absolutely not. It's about user and vendor choice. Nobody is suggesting that the 'US Government' make an alternative app store. But a lot of people are suggesting that people should be able to buy directly from Epic, Adobe - or whoever.

This is the "Libertarian wild west" option, and it will not happen under even the EU. Multiple app stores will only exist with government oversight and an agreed regulatory framework for reviewing apps for admission.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#349

Post by parasubvert »

ptx wrote: post #273
parasubvert wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the subtext of the other Epic v. Apple threads, this is the point: government is somehow going to do a better job than Apple or Google. That or government will mandate the Libertarian Wild West on our phones where anyone can install anything from any store. Mobile operators alone will balk at that. This is a fever dream from a new generation of publishers and developers that have to learn how this worked…

> Libertarian Wild West on our phones where anyone can install anything from any store An important distinction is that while I can install whatever I want on my phone and you can install whatever you want on your phone, removing Apple's monopoly on distribution wouldn't make our phones world-writable to "anyone". > Mobile operators alone will balk at that. They didn't. We already had multiple app stores for J2ME, Wi…

> They didn't. We already had multiple app stores for J2ME, Windows CE and Symbian apps before Apple started the trend of locking things down.

There were no "App Stores" for J2ME apps, per se. You certainly could buy and install apps from ISVs, but they were heavily locked down based on carrier policy. I developed apps for WinCE, Palm and Blackberry and the carrier-mandatory permissions were strict depending on the jurisdiction. The devices that weren't restricted were e.g. WinCE devices that were sync'd and not network connected.

Apple just took the decades old old trend started by console manufacturers and applied it to Mobile.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#350

Post by zepto »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #346
zepto wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious reasons: Key apps have zero incentive to try to get people to switch to Android. Even if there was, there is a prisoners dilemma - it would only work if many of them switched at once. This is absolutely nothing like the situation with multiple app stores, where not all apps have to switch at once. Most users do not refuse to use Facebook. New people take up smoking daily. The idea that users would ‘refuse’ to…

> Key apps have zero incentive to try to get people to switch to Android. Google Play is less stringent about privacy than Apple (right?), so the same incentives would exist. > Even if there was, there is a prisoners dilemma - it would only work if many of them switched at once. Which would still be true with alternate stores. Nobody wants to be the first to switch to a shady store that customers don't trust and aban…

I’ve already explained why the incentives don’t exist in the Android store.

Do you know what a paid exclusive is?

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