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Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

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Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#61

Post by TeMPOraL »

0df8dkdf wrote: post #56
TeMPOraL wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confident HN could handle an explanation of that that's evidence-based, or at least presents a self-consistent model, and doesn't just peddle conspiracy theories. If you have one, please share (or link to a previous discussion). I'm somewhat open to this view, given that it seems like a reasonable explanation that a good chunk of the influential people have gone through the same few schools, socialize in the same…

That is more nepotism, and it is not necessary bad. People work better with people they know and trust. Nepotism can lead to nefarious amongst a group with people who has a lot of power and money. That is probably what happened in US with Bushes, Clintons and Obamas. At this point, even mainstream pretty much admitted that use is an oligarchy: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

What I wrote does not necessitate nepotism. It doesn't have to be that those already in power actively select for their friends and relatives to join their rank. Just that if most people who become rich and powerful tend to go through a small subset of universities or networks, they all end up having a similar mindset.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#62

Post by eternalban »

idclip wrote: post #21
wombatmobile wrote: post #7

> In recent history, the Panama Papers have comprised one of the largest and most influential leaks detailing information on offshore entities, company officers and financial (and legal) intermediaries, and has led to a global exposé of corruption and tax evasion. A systematic analysis of this information can provide valuable insights into the structure and properties of these entities and the relations between them.…

It means corruption is a basic human behavior. Its a self generating phenomena, and is „natural“. So there is no „illuminati“ to go after to solve this. Studies try and see how problems can be solved - if there was a single organizing entity like a mafia boss, it would be simpler to tackle the issue but there isn't, so its Marder than first expected. As to tax evasion, id posit the question „so why are these people e…

Off shore safe havens exists because some sovereign authority has designated their domain as a "tax haven" and the usually very strict sovereigns of "big powers" are not sending their military to the said "off shore safe havens" to shut them down.

Opaque segments of the global financial networks enable Black Ops. No need to drag in Weishaupt and his worshipful brethren here, correct? So let's just discuss the "secret services" of the "big powers". Are they using the "tax havens"? I think the answer must be "Surely you jest, old boy!"

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#63

Post by hestefisk »

stevenjohns wrote: post #60
Erwin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That society already exists in e.g. Nordic countries. If we look at Sweden, Finland etc, total tax revenues as percentage of GDP are 48-54%. In USA, they are 24.3%. So here's a smaller community where the majority is fine with high taxation in exchange for freely available health care, higher education etc. Family funds exist here (e.g. Novo Nordisk is 25% owned by a humanitarian fund, Mærsk) but are less important t…

You're missing out on the significant unemployment in countries like Sweden. There is significantly better free healthcare in Australia - which has an average tax rate of 23.6%. The correlation of high taxes = better quality of life doesn't hold much strength when you consider that there are plenty of countries doing well without it, and plenty of countries with high taxes that have a poor quality of life.

I’m Australian and my personal income tax rate is not 24%, but 40%. What tax rate are you referring to —- corporate, gross personal, effective personal?

In terms of model healthcare, Australia is not the system you want. Our health system grossly underfunded and ineffective with lots of waste from years of private sector health insurance.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#64

Post by hdjdbtbgwjsn »

germinalphrase wrote: post #58
hdjdbtbgwjsn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice people that object to the taxes just move away.

They have the resources to do so, but How many low tax, high status countries are there to live in? How many people are free from all community, familial relationships that moving abroad had no social costs?

For Scandinavians doing e.g. banking the UK has previously been a good option.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#65

Post by PedroBatista »

fit2rule wrote: post #57
nobody9999 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand. Mind to elaborate? Eli5? Not OP, but I assume he/she means something like a consumption tax[0]. However, given that poorer people tend to spend more of their income than wealthier ones, unless such a tax is appropriately calibrated, it can be quite regressive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumption_tax

In a nutshell: Poor people stay poor because they can't save. That is why income tax is repressive - it guarantees economic stagnation, since nobody wants to work for the man. Spending tax means that, no matter who you are, you will pay your taxes if you want to purchase something, whether its a commodity or product or service. The rich will still be able to be rich - in fact, there will be more rich people - but the…

That’s cute but the economy is based on spending. Governments want people with some money but not enough where they’ll start to think they can stay at home playing the stock market. If the majority did that, society would collapse.

Also a version of that already exists in most countries, in Europe you pay around 18-25% of VAT in every purchase you make but income taxes tend to apply only if you make X amount of money which effectively means poor people don’t pay income tax.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#66

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

Erwin wrote: post #41
milchek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in commun…

That society already exists in e.g. Nordic countries. If we look at Sweden, Finland etc, total tax revenues as percentage of GDP are 48-54%. In USA, they are 24.3%. So here's a smaller community where the majority is fine with high taxation in exchange for freely available health care, higher education etc. Family funds exist here (e.g. Novo Nordisk is 25% owned by a humanitarian fund, Mærsk) but are less important t…

> That society already exists in e.g. Nordic countries.

Why IKEA’s profits are mostly tax free https://www.afr.com/policy/tax-and-super/why-ikea-s-profits-...

Legal loopholes make Sweden a tax haven https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/legal-loopholes-make-swede...

Siem Offshore Fined NOK 5 Mln in Tax Evasion Case https://www.offshore-energy.biz/siem-offshore-fined-nok-5-ml...

the issue is less how much tax _individuals_ pay. Tax avoidance on behalf of individuals is tiny and absolute "small-fry". The biggest cheaters that can afford it on a massive scale are companies.

one of the biggest problems is that if you want to compete in a global market space you're kind of forced to use legal (but dirty) tricks (tax optimization such as transfer pricing etc). The strategy is always to squeeze the consumer end (e.g. the retail) and supply side (production/manufacture etc) and this is where you're losses are while you scoop the profits from the middle (a tax haven). It's cool to talk about Cayman and Switzerland in silly Hollywood movies but some of the biggest tax havens are actually the US (Nevada, New Mexico, etc), Luxembourg, Netherlands, UK ... as long as we don't clean up this rigged global financial system we shouldn't even consider discussing about whether the average Joe has been taxed enough.

There is a great book that links the emergence of this offshore industry with the dissolving of the empires (e.g. Gabon is laundering the money for the French elite in the same way as BVI, Caymans have been used by Brits) ...: "Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men who Stole the World (2011) " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands:_Tax_Havens_a...

Even we clean up all our structures in the West there will be plenty of opportunity to move capital to Bahrain, Dubai or uhm ... Japan https://fsi.taxjustice.net/en/

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#67

Post by mikorym »

milchek wrote: post #34
idclip wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means corruption is a basic human behavior. Its a self generating phenomena, and is „natural“. So there is no „illuminati“ to go after to solve this. Studies try and see how problems can be solved - if there was a single organizing entity like a mafia boss, it would be simpler to tackle the issue but there isn't, so its Marder than first expected. As to tax evasion, id posit the question „so why are these people e…

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in commun…

I think one answer is tax cuts for charity.

If I can give my tax money to someone of my choosing, I think it may incentivise people to feel better about where the money is going.

To be clear, not making your tax payments less, but rather choosing where it goes. Of course, if you have a network of nonprofits, this become a bit grey. In the USA I have gotten the impression that people do try to game the idea of nonprofits.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#68

Post by nobody9999 »

mikorym wrote: post #67
milchek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in commun…

I think one answer is tax cuts for charity. If I can give my tax money to someone of my choosing, I think it may incentivise people to feel better about where the money is going. To be clear, not making your tax payments less, but rather choosing where it goes. Of course, if you have a network of nonprofits, this become a bit grey. In the USA I have gotten the impression that people do try to game the idea of nonprof…

>I think one answer is tax cuts for charity.

>To be clear, not making your tax payments less, but rather choosing where it goes.

Giving to charities reduces your tax burden, at least in the US.

In fact, you can generally deduct up to half your income[0] based on charitable contributions.

Does that meet your desire to better direct your tax dollars?

[0] https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz...

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#69

Post by Jenk »

mikorym wrote: post #67
milchek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in commun…

I think one answer is tax cuts for charity. If I can give my tax money to someone of my choosing, I think it may incentivise people to feel better about where the money is going. To be clear, not making your tax payments less, but rather choosing where it goes. Of course, if you have a network of nonprofits, this become a bit grey. In the USA I have gotten the impression that people do try to game the idea of nonprof…

Taxes became a thing precisely because this model failed. The utopia of "common sense and decency" kicking in and ensuring public services are well funded is a false hope and does not work. Simply put, there is always a significant element in the populace that won't pay if they can get away with it, and making taxes optional just gives them an easy way to avoid contributing at all.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#70

Post by ColanR »

nobody9999 wrote: post #38
xavriley wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In network science, it’s fairly common to take a graph of something and be able to apply techniques like neighbourhood analysis or clustering which then reveal something about the data. This comes up in all kinds of real world examples from social networks to music preferences etc. What the authors are saying (I think) is that they tried the same tricks on the Panama data and got nothing useful out of it. The standar…

>What the authors are saying (I think) is that they tried the same tricks on the Panama data and got nothing useful out of it. The standard graph techniques don’t explain anything useful about what’s going on. The impression I got was not that they found nothing useful, but that they didn't find broadly interconnected networks within the data. If that's the case, it's likely that the transactions in the data aren't t…

> that they didn't find broadly interconnected networks within the data.

That seems to agree with what the parent said. It sounds to me like if a broadly interconnected network was found, that would be a failure on the part of the people trying to facilitate the tax avoidance schemes - the closer to homogenous noise the graph looks, the harder it is to trace. Based on that, I'd say that there's no utility in trying to prove the negative, i.e., that larger networks do not exist.

If the people hiding their assets actually did their job well, they would expect and hope that you (as an outside analyst) would come to exactly the conclusion that you have come to.

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