Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#81

Post by henriquez » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:10 PM UTC

achn wrote: post #76

valvar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the utterly ridiculous "paradox of tolerance" is just a bad cope for people who truly do not believe in free speech. "Free speech" which only applies to your predefined set of approved speech is not free speech, but a monstrous parody of it. The purpose of free speech is to enable dissent, not to affirm the status quo.

Sorry,free speech does not mean that private companies have to provide their resources and time to support your hate speech. It means that you, on public property, using your own resources, have the freedom to say what you want without reprisal from the government. But even that should have limits, especially when your “free speech” limits the right to liberty and prosperity of others (most isms).

The first half of your statement is true but irrelevant here as the controversy touched on in the OP is that reddit as an organization _used to_ purport to stand for free speech.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#82

Post by superkuh » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:10 PM UTC

xevrem wrote: post #50

sebmellen wrote: post #4

Reddit is very clearly not in favour of free speech: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/reddit-bans-thedonald-and-... . Aaron Swartz was very clearly in favour of free speech: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/becausewecan . I think the reasons for this are self-evident.

honestly, i would say the banning of thedonald is clearly a response to The Paradox of Tolerance rather than not supporting free-speech. you cannot be tolerant of the intolerant if you want free speech to survive.

All those political bannnings by admins aren't really the big issue (and only relatively recent). The big issue re: reddit and free speech has to do with things that Reddit corp has trouble monetizing and putting ads beside. Sure, some of the bans might come from a partisan political place but the vast majority of reddit admin actions are just that of corporate drones protecting corporate image in order to make more money.

Centralized corporate run proprietary systems will always end up like this. It's the circle of web life.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#83

Post by cies » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:10 PM UTC

valvar wrote: post #60

xevrem wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly, i would say the banning of thedonald is clearly a response to The Paradox of Tolerance rather than not supporting free-speech. you cannot be tolerant of the intolerant if you want free speech to survive.

No, the utterly ridiculous "paradox of tolerance" is just a bad cope for people who truly do not believe in free speech. "Free speech" which only applies to your predefined set of approved speech is not free speech, but a monstrous parody of it. The purpose of free speech is to enable dissent, not to affirm the status quo.

Nonsense. Do you think movies of child abuse are "free speech", or recruitment/instruction videos tot terrorist organizations, or inciting violence and hate? What about Assange, he published some stuff, could that be free speech? Or violations of copyright?

To me free speech is like free markets. The word does not adequately cover the implementation as boundaries do apply. There are little to non truly free markets (no tax, no imp/ex restrictions, etc). And there is not truly free speech.

And to limit freedom to speech to prevent hate/violence inciting crowds to get a platform may --according to me-- be necessary in some cases and is allowed by many of the worlds constitutions.

On top of that Reddit is a private platform, so they are free to set their standard, just like you may prohibit some speech in your own household (under the thread of being expelled or "no longer welcome).

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#84

Post by agumonkey » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:10 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #54

agumonkey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is extremely myopic and biased, I don't care much of shutting down subreddits to be honest, especially if you get extremists ready to act all up and angry together. They're still very free to speak have no worry. Also if reddit didn't stop that, they'd be flagged as pro-racist. There was a need for a decision to be made, nothing else.

Well, I hope we can agree to disagree. I strongly and vehemently disagree with your characterization. I think suppression of speech is something that must be pushed back against or it will be tacitly accepted. Social media is the new public square, and Reddit tried to pretend it is a "platform", while it makes large-scale editorial decisions. /r/chapotraphouse was an extremely far-left, anti-racist subreddit banned i…

I have no problem disagreeing and indeed our views are worlds apart.

Social media means moot to me, I think internet has reached its limits long ago and better things are done without this.

Now that reddit is hypocritical about its motto.. very plausible, and I personally, consider reddit as a toy, not a tool, nothing more. And you stated it yourself, both subs you mentionned became too extreme, this was the sole reason behind the removal.

IIUC you're afraid that this is a precedent leading to more and more chatting place shutdowns and a new form of oppression ? Let me say this, we have obese levels of communication channels, the reality lies elsewhere, and if and when people will need to speak for serious matters, they'll have the means.

It's nice to be absolutist but don't go blind.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#85

Post by gameswithgo » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:11 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #69

valvar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the utterly ridiculous "paradox of tolerance" is just a bad cope for people who truly do not believe in free speech. "Free speech" which only applies to your predefined set of approved speech is not free speech, but a monstrous parody of it. The purpose of free speech is to enable dissent, not to affirm the status quo.

To piggyback on this, here is a quote from Karl Popper (the "discoverer" of the Paradox of Tolerance): > I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.

>as long as we can counter them by rational argument

I don't know if y'all are new to the internet, but I've been here since around 1990 and we ration argument hasn't done any good. I feel like a lot of these ideas around speech are ones that came from people who were used to arguing with other intelligent people. When the unwashed masses are involved, rational argument doesn't work at all. Some people understand this, which is why people like Trump can get elected. It wasn't as if there was a failure of making rational arguments to counter him. The average person just does not care/understand what a rational argument is.

I offer no solutions here, sorry.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#86

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:11 PM UTC

valvar wrote: post #65

raverbashing wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shutting down platforms for discussion is quite literally restricting free speech In the same way as "anti-maskers" take wearing one as being choked by the neck and are feigning fainting, taking the trash out of your platform, be it T_D or CTH does not make it "restricting free speech"

Do you have an actual argument, or is your view simply that it's not restricting free speech if it's bad speech?

They are private platforms, nobody owns anybody a soapbox.

Freedom of speech is about legality. Restrictions of freedom of speech: litigation, prison, penalties or worse. Not "my favourite subreddit was deleted"

And speech is not 100% free anywhere.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#87

Post by ratww » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:11 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #28

Reddit today is the opposite of what it was in the beginning. Unsurprising that they’d write out Swartz in their quest to be a friendly corporate face. Alas, a new competitor will replace it soon. Virtually no one has brand loyalty to Reddit and their audience is becoming narrower and narrower.

I don't think so.

If anything, Reddit is getting bigger. In my circle nobody knew what it was five years ago. Now it has effectively become mainstream, and is being (positively) quoted on TV, etc.

This is actually the second time it happens. Ten years ago people also claimed that "Reddit is dying". It wasn't, it was just changing its core audience of technical users to a broader one. And now it is doing it again.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#88

Post by cung » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:11 PM UTC

It seems to me that the same thing that happened to Reddit is happening to Hacker News now.

I've seen an uptick of misleading titles, which make you question what is real.

Another trend I've noticed is an increase in pro-drug/pro-medication posts, which aim to frame life's challenges as something that need medication.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#89

Post by akarma » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:12 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #9

Most of the elites are weak, cowardly and selfish hypocrites. There is no way they'll be able to stop the upcoming revolution. They'll fall like dominoes the minute the tension starts to rise... If you're an elite and you have any strength at all, you'd better start throwing your buddies under the bus soon. It's going to be you or them. They're so weak and so selfish, you don't have much time left before they start t…

> There is no way they'll be able to stop the upcoming revolution.

As someone who grew up poor in America, these talks about “revolution” have always perplexed me.

We have one of the highest median incomes in the world, and we live in a country that pushes much of the world forward in terms of technological progress.

People have always flocked to America for opportunity, and if we cut welfare so we can expand immigration again, I guarantee there will be another giant influx.

This country allows people of virtually all income levels access to an abundance of food and pleasures through our capitalist system. Grocery stores with packed shelves aren’t something you should take for granted.

Revolution isn’t the path to become like Sweden. It’s the path to become like the USSR.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#90

Post by DevOopsEngineer » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:12 PM UTC

ameen wrote: post #20

082349872349872 wrote: post #5

As they say in the Belt, "inyalowda tili tenya fit detim fo bang fit xitim" (They own the past to control the present).

For the uninitiated, this is from the sci-fi series, “The Expanse” which has found a home on Amazon Prime. Highly recommended for those interested in an interplanetary sci-fi.

It started out as kick-ass book series. But yes, the TV show is pretty good too.