Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

doi.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 98 posts

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#31

Post by canjobear »

wombatmobile wrote: post #7

> In recent history, the Panama Papers have comprised one of the largest and most influential leaks detailing information on offshore entities, company officers and financial (and legal) intermediaries, and has led to a global exposé of corruption and tax evasion. A systematic analysis of this information can provide valuable insights into the structure and properties of these entities and the relations between them.…

It means they ran a bunch of off the shelf graph theory algorithms and the results were confusing.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#33

Post by monkeycantype »

vikingcaffiene wrote: post #4

Everything I've heard about the panama papers suggests that it's a massive scandal that exposes how the rich and powerful are systematically fucking over society. The sad truth is that even though it's been exposed, the scheme is too complex for most people to grasp. Hell they even made a movie about it and no one paid much attention.

The actual power of the wealthy is vastly overestimated. What matters is the extent to which that power is exercised. Most of us exert very little effort to nudge society in a direction we want it improve, leaving the few that do vulnerable and exposed. (and we put too little effort into handle the conflict that arises when we do.)

I disagree that people couldn't understand the panama papers, we don't because we don't try. People like J.C. Sharman spell it out for us what's going on.

http://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/rea...

we just don't read it. I've got his book. I haven't read it. But in the time that I've had it I've watched multiple garbage sci fi series.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#34

Post by milchek »

idclip wrote: post #21
wombatmobile wrote: post #7

> In recent history, the Panama Papers have comprised one of the largest and most influential leaks detailing information on offshore entities, company officers and financial (and legal) intermediaries, and has led to a global exposé of corruption and tax evasion. A systematic analysis of this information can provide valuable insights into the structure and properties of these entities and the relations between them.…

It means corruption is a basic human behavior. Its a self generating phenomena, and is „natural“. So there is no „illuminati“ to go after to solve this. Studies try and see how problems can be solved - if there was a single organizing entity like a mafia boss, it would be simpler to tackle the issue but there isn't, so its Marder than first expected. As to tax evasion, id posit the question „so why are these people e…

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing

I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in community projects.

I wonder if we’d get the same sort of donations we get by wealthy families to get hospital wards named after them etc.

I suppose it requires a shift in what we value as humans, perhaps we could work toward a society where the amount you’ve given away gives you the most social credit or prestige, rather than how much you’ve amassed. Is it too naive and childish to think this sort of society is possible and could be an improvement over the current one?

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#35

Post by chii »

milchek wrote: post #34
idclip wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means corruption is a basic human behavior. Its a self generating phenomena, and is „natural“. So there is no „illuminati“ to go after to solve this. Studies try and see how problems can be solved - if there was a single organizing entity like a mafia boss, it would be simpler to tackle the issue but there isn't, so its Marder than first expected. As to tax evasion, id posit the question „so why are these people e…

> Can they be otherwise somehow incentivized to invest in their Communities rather than evade? And how big is the contribution here? Is it worth pursuing I like this question. It makes me wonder what society would look like if we had micro community councils that operated this way, where residents “donated” parts of their wealth and those donations gave them some sort of stake, naming right, or voting power in commun…

> or voting power in community projects.

but then they get called lobbyists when this happens.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#36

Post by nullsense »

guerrilla wrote: post #23
idclip wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means corruption is a basic human behavior. Its a self generating phenomena, and is „natural“. So there is no „illuminati“ to go after to solve this. Studies try and see how problems can be solved - if there was a single organizing entity like a mafia boss, it would be simpler to tackle the issue but there isn't, so its Marder than first expected. As to tax evasion, id posit the question „so why are these people e…

> It means corruption is a basic human behavior. That is most certainly not what the study means. If you were going to extrapolate, you might be able to get away with corruption is basic rich people behavior, but even that is going way further than what the study is actually saying.

>That is most certainly not what the study means. If you were going to extrapolate, you might be able to get away with corruption is basic rich people behavior, but even that is going way further than what the study is actually saying.

Corruption is incredibly widespread globally across all demographics. It tends to show up the least in WEIRD places, and be most obvious in poorer countries, but it's everywhere and every level of society.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#37

Post by TeMPOraL »

troughway wrote: post #6
vikingcaffiene wrote: post #4

Everything I've heard about the panama papers suggests that it's a massive scandal that exposes how the rich and powerful are systematically fucking over society. The sad truth is that even though it's been exposed, the scheme is too complex for most people to grasp. Hell they even made a movie about it and no one paid much attention.

Because when you try to explain to HN that things are rigged and that "competitors" at higher levels know each other personally because even their kids attend the same schools gets you flagged, downvoted and warned, there is really no point in doing so anymore. Not important at this point. Let the idiots graze the pasture.

I'm confident HN could handle an explanation of that that's evidence-based, or at least presents a self-consistent model, and doesn't just peddle conspiracy theories.

If you have one, please share (or link to a previous discussion). I'm somewhat open to this view, given that it seems like a reasonable explanation that a good chunk of the influential people have gone through the same few schools, socialize in the same circles, etc. By itself that isn't nefarious per se, but it does limit the distribution of worldviews among the people with power.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#38

Post by nobody9999 »

xavriley wrote: post #30
wombatmobile wrote: post #7

> In recent history, the Panama Papers have comprised one of the largest and most influential leaks detailing information on offshore entities, company officers and financial (and legal) intermediaries, and has led to a global exposé of corruption and tax evasion. A systematic analysis of this information can provide valuable insights into the structure and properties of these entities and the relations between them.…

In network science, it’s fairly common to take a graph of something and be able to apply techniques like neighbourhood analysis or clustering which then reveal something about the data. This comes up in all kinds of real world examples from social networks to music preferences etc. What the authors are saying (I think) is that they tried the same tricks on the Panama data and got nothing useful out of it. The standar…

>What the authors are saying (I think) is that they tried the same tricks on the Panama data and got nothing useful out of it. The standard graph techniques don’t explain anything useful about what’s going on.

The impression I got was not that they found nothing useful, but that they didn't find broadly interconnected networks within the data.

If that's the case, it's likely that the transactions in the data aren't tightly linked.

Which is useful, in that it tells us that those involved in such activities are not a cabal of evil elites, rather they're disparate groups with little in common except their desire to avoid taxes/hide assets.

That conclusion certainly implies that addressing these activities will be more difficult as they are decentralized and widespread, but it's certainly not useless IMHO.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#39

Post by nobody9999 »

FandangoRanger wrote: post #32

Hey where can independent researchers obtain the Panama Papers? I don’t think people can be expected to simply “trust us guys.”

>Hey where can independent researchers obtain the Panama Papers? I don’t think people can be expected to simply “trust us guys.”

Footnote 5 of the paper in the submission provides a link to the data used. For your convenience, that link is: https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/pages/database

I look forward to reading your paper when it's complete.

Re: Structural studies of the global networks exposed in the Panama papers

#40

Post by karlp »

nullsense wrote: post #36
guerrilla wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It means corruption is a basic human behavior. That is most certainly not what the study means. If you were going to extrapolate, you might be able to get away with corruption is basic rich people behavior, but even that is going way further than what the study is actually saying.

>That is most certainly not what the study means. If you were going to extrapolate, you might be able to get away with corruption is basic rich people behavior, but even that is going way further than what the study is actually saying. Corruption is incredibly widespread globally across all demographics. It tends to show up the least in WEIRD places, and be most obvious in poorer countries, but it's everywhere and ev…

> It tends to show up the least in WEIRD places

What do you mean by that?

Post reply on HN