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The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

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Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#91
post #12

TL;DR: the actual experiment: > they constructed an air-tight closed ventilation system that connected a six-room tuberculosis ward to an exposure chamber with 150 guinea pigs. (Among rodent animal models, only guinea pigs could cough and sneeze, making them ideal for studying how respiratory diseases spread.) The guinea pigs were exposed to the infected air over a four-year period. A second group of 150 guinea pigs…

Today I learned: > The animals were used so frequently as model organisms in the 19th and 20th centuries that the epithet guinea pig came into use to describe a human test subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig

Same for lab rats.

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things worth pointing out about the linked article (not by Riley), regarding masks and disinfecting air: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2006.0962... - It contains no experimental data, it's a review of possible methods. - It's not about Covid-19, although that's to be expected. - The masks it talks about are N95 and N100 respirators (which it notes aren't in adequate supply). Some interesting…

The logic is short in other terms. It requires you wear the mask at all times. And that you change it regularly by removing folding inwards and disposing securely. Otherwise you may pick up an infection and then put a mask on afterwards which necessarily means that much of the shedding caught in the mask will be breathed back in - From mouth to nose and vice versa. Or put the mask back on backwards or wave it around…

For all the talk about how much masks help, I haven't seen great studies that aren't in vitro, not specifically in health care settings, and not specifically around someone known to have it. I found this which is at least a natural experiment:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/pdf/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.0...

> Mandating face mask use in public is associated with a decline in the daily COVID-19 growth rate by 0.9, 1.1,1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points in 1–5, 6–10, 11–15, 16–20, and 21 or more days after state face mask orders were signed, respectively.

I'm trying to sort of if those percentages are absolute or relative. I think they're absolute because some of the graphs are labeled "percentage point change," but using absolute percentage point changes for an analysis like this is seriously flawed because a 2% reduction could range anywhere from a miracle to statistically significant, but negligible.

It's also not clear if people feel safer wearing face masks, so they engage in riskier activities.

My guess is they're not as effective as claimed because while the Bay Area has pretty high compliance, if masks were systemically very effective, we'd see case rates drop a lot faster, not still be above mid-June numbers. That said, whatever the Bay Area is doing right now is working.

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#94
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If DIYing, choose your UV wavelength wisely. UVC (around 254nm wavelength) is germicidal and doesn't produce ozone (it actually dissociates ozone). "Vacuum UV" (in the range 185nm) converts oxygen in the air to ozone, which is highly toxic. [1] http://www.uvresources.com/blog/the-ultraviolet-germicidal-i...

Also the whole skin cancer thing.

The point of the parents' posts is that you have these issues with ozone even if you just irradiated the air ducts without direct contact to UVC.

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free electrons tend to distribute themselves on an object as to minimize the repulsive forces between them. This usually means that they distribute evenly on the surface of objects. Humans are a bit more complicated in structure than say a metal ball, but my guess would be that there would be a similar situation where all the free electrons would just build up on the skin. Therefore, I don't think the particles one w…

Alveoli are basically small air sacs in your lungs, so they're a surface (it's just an inverted ball, a hollow sphere in a not-so-solid object). No idea how that influences where the electrons go. I wonder how the nervous system would interact with that as synapses fire. I'm curious if they would build up, or if the synapses all over the body firing would make them bounce around constantly.

> Alveoli are basically small air sacs in your lungs, so they're a surface

> No idea how that influences where the electrons go.

Electrons don't specifically move toward surfaces, they move to be as far apart from each other, so internal surfaces don't count significantly. Saying they move toward surfaces is only true for convex objects (and they are evenly distributed when the object is a sphere).

In the human body, they'll move toward extremities: hands, feet, tips of hairs, ...

The latter is an easy to observe effect of static electricity, charges will apply pressure on the hairs and make them straight so they are as far away from the rest of the charges as possible. See the first image here for example: https://www.loc.gov/everyday-mysteries/item/how-does-static-...

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#96

Can we "mutate" a virus to use radioactive isotope of carbon (c-14? something that is not harmful for humans) so that we can observe how viral a virus is? Not an expert on radio isotopes or spectrography or viruses. Note: I know, radioactive virus at this point might freakout people a little.

Where would it get the carbon-14 from? Virus particles (virions) are made by and from their host. So you'd need a human made from carbon-14 first.

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#98
The idea of respiratory viruses not being airborne sounds silly. What's the viral charge supposed to do, not jump into droplets smaller than certain size?

Of course they are present in the smallest droplets! They are present in the mucous secretions of the infected individual and they will get expelled through the big and the small droplets.

The distinction shouldn't be a qualitative one, airborne vs not airborne. It's a quantitative one, sufficiently infectious viruses may pose a risk at much smaller doses, the kind that you may be exposed by the smallest droplets expelled that simply stay afloat.

It's also worth noting that human immune response is a complicated beast, what may not be infectious for an average healthy individual may put down someone with a weakened immune response. So even supposedly "not airborne" viruses that are very unlikely to infect the average healthy individual at very small doses may pose an "airborne" risk for individuals with a weakened immune response.

There are more factors in all of this, atmospheric conditions may play a role. For example, cold temperatures may be more suitable for the virus to remain infectious outside of a host, thus increasing the likelihood of "airborne" propagation.

TL;DR: The distinction between airborne and not airborne viruses is an artificial one. That only makes sense statistically for an average individual at certain atmospheric conditions for a concrete strain of the virus. But as any real-world statistical distribution there are tails and you will find "airborne" qualities for pretty much any respiratory virus in those tails.

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered just how much UV-C do you need to effectively kill the virus (power vs duct diameter and air speed).... because, instead of traditional masks, you could take a small fan, blow air into a pipe with a UV-C bulb inside, and pump the sterilized air to the human... basically something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGrh2io9Ds&app=desktop

The real question is is there a safe wavelength and low enough power where you could swap out fluorescent tubes and effectively manage the virus.

I was imagining some kind of doorway device - but yeah, that's a really interesting approach.

Again, what is safe .. but it the infrastructure is there ...

Re: The experiment that proved airborne disease transmission

#100
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother to disinfect when you can ventilate? Air with pathogens out, fresh air without pathogens in. (Regarding herd immunity: you're aware that at the current rate of 55000 people per day, it would take 10 years to infect 60% of 320 million people? Nothing to say of the countless casualties that you would get in the process.)

Probably cheaper to slot a component into your HVAC than it is to re-engineer it to draw outside hot air, cool it, and still keep interiors at a comfortable level. (Reverse for winter) My house has a fantastic filter along with a UV system as well. When I bought the house I thought it was overkill, but now I’m quite happy it’s there.

The amount of heat in the air is small compared to that in other materials; buildings with stone or concrete walls have a sufficient heat capacity that you can ventilate without temperature changing too much. This works less well for buildings with wooden walls though.

Ventilating properly requires discipline though. No tilted/semi-opened windows for prolonged time for example. In winter, heating should be turned off and the windows should be as wide open as possible to minimize the time to exchange air. That's to reduce the loss of heat. 5-10 minutes of ventilating is good enough, usually. We usually don't have air condition here, so I don't know what's the recommended process in the summer.

It's common to ventilate like this in Germany in the winter for example. I know (now returned) former German expats that completely missed this development. They still tilt windows and let the heating run all day long.

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