Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#281

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:32 AM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #166

wtmt wrote: post #143

This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. The CEO’s brother was caught in a sting video saying they could sell any user’s information for a price (search online and you’ll find the video). All that these Indian startups care is for them to benefit and control everything. It’s not about equitable treatment. It’s more about regulatory capture and making sure that their…

> This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that.

> Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that.

I'm sympathetic to this, because I do think it's great that Apple values user privacy. But I think it's unfortunate that the perception is that the only way to get that privacy is to use a heavily locked-down device that the user doesn't actually have control over, and that the entity protecting your privacy has to impose strict restrictions on what you can do with that device.

Obviously Google will never be a good example of a company that protects user data and user privacy; their entire business model depends on the opposite. But that doesn't mean that the concept of a company selling a premium product that protects user privacy by default couldn't also allow users to do whatever they want with their device.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#282

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #275

webmobdev wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. I vehemently disagree - in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data, and the biggest lie they sell is that they don't do anything with your data, unlike other corporates. From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default, and claim…

> in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them. > and the biggest lie According to? > From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default and claiming to block trackers and browser fingerprinting It works, even if it’s not perfect and it’s certainly better th…

> Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them.

May I ask why? If hypothetically Apple isn't trustworthy with your data, why would you prefer them over any other company with a hypothetically similarly-bad level of trustworthiness?

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#283

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:41 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #263

reader_mode wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically just like the internet and PCs - no guarantees given ? I don't have a problem with this and I don't really see the value add for the 30% cut.

You may be smart and wise and know how to avoid dodgy apps, but can you trust everyone you want to have a private chat online with to not unwittingly install a screen recorder? And differently from PCs, can you trust everyone you chat with in real life to not unwittingly install an app that turns on the microphone and/or camera? Don’t get me wrong — I want there to be 3rd party app stores, even if only because of the…

I think it's reasonable for Apple to make it difficult for shady third-parties to get you to install their malware-ridden app store, but I don't agree that the only way to keep users safe is to disallow any third-party app installs entirely.

Apple just currently has little incentive to do the former, because a) it's more difficult, b) they have a financial benefit to keeping everyone in their own app store.

Given that, it's naive to think that Apple's main motivation here is to protect users. Sure, that's a part of it (maybe even a big part!), but they could protect their users in other ways, but those other ways would likely hurt their bottom line.

And I think that is why people cry anti-trust all the time when it comes to this: in a perfect world where no one was motivated by profit (and consumer lock-in), we can imagine that Apple would find a way to open up the platform a bit more.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#284

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

ffpip wrote: post #226

oauea wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just don't install them. You can make these decisions yourself, you don't need Apple to make them for you.

I think you are underestimating the Indian govt's determination to force anything on citizens in the name of patriotism. If this store is actually true, a law will definitely be passed to make sure this app is preinstalled with root access for updates.

This has nothing to do with Apple, specifically, though. This is an argument for citizens to get more involved in their government process, and to avoid being suckered by government fear-mongering that results in citizen's accepting ridiculous intrusions into their lives.

Apple deciding to allow or not allow third-party app stores is irrelevant in the face of a government that has decided to pass a law that requires a particular app to be on all phones. If that law is passed, that app will end up on phones, regardless. The only alternative is that Apple would give up a market consisting the second-most populous country in the world, which isn't likely.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#285

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:51 AM UTC

parasubvert wrote: post #219

rishav_sharan wrote: post #163

Far too many optimistic voices here and that scares me. I don't see this app store being about providing alternatives. that's just a talking point. This app store is all about forcing every android sold in India to have a system installed govt driven app, which will report back to the govt on tons of private information about the device and owner. Information that Indian govt will be too incompetent to keep safe and…

If you read the subtext of the other Epic v. Apple threads, this is the point: government is somehow going to do a better job than Apple or Google. That or government will mandate the Libertarian Wild West on our phones where anyone can install anything from any store. Mobile operators alone will balk at that. This is a fever dream from a new generation of publishers and developers that have to learn how this worked…

> Mobile operators alone will balk at that.

I don't think that's a consideration anymore. When the iPhone was brand-new, Apple had a ton of trouble negotiating with carriers who were used to controlling what goes on their network. Nowadays, carriers have very little say beyond things like PCTRB certification and a mostly-cursory review of OS-level OTA updates. When it comes to apps (or even app stores), the carriers don't even get notified, let alone get veto powers.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#286

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:55 AM UTC

phatfish wrote: post #222

powerapple wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All we need is a proper way to tax these companies. It is totally okay that Google or Facebook is doing the work, the people can tax them and get a fair cut from the profit.

Yes you are right, taxing global companies effectively would help greatly. There seems to be no will (in the West at least) to do anything about it though. Closing loopholes is a problem and it just becomes a war of attrition with accountants and lawyers. Maybe there does need to be the global coordinated effort on tax reform that is the typical excuse for why nothing is ever changed. I can see why punitive action ag…

> Closing loopholes is a problem and it just becomes a war of attrition with accountants and lawyers.

I think that's unfortunately true, but there must be a point of diminishing returns. Close enough loopholes (intentional loopholes or otherwise) and companies end up spending more money on tax lawyers than the value of the actual tax break. Even if some companies are able to use some loopholes, closing many of them still means more tax revenue for states. We don't need to get to a "perfect" state here.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#287

Post by kelnos » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #56

I welcome this. It will be messy, it will open oportunities to corruption, lobbying, crappy user experiences, unsafe apps, government abuse, nationalism, ... it is really a Pandora box. But mess can be a fertile ground for competition and innovation when excessive regulation blocks it. Today's app stores are just feature development labs for Apple & Google. There is no chance that anyone will be able to create a big…

I welcome the idea that Apple should be required to allow third-party app stores, but the only end game I see with a government app store is a legally-mandated requirement to have that app store installed on all citizens'/residents' phones. At that point the phones just become extensions of the state's intelligence apparatus, and that's a net negative for everyone's privacy.

Apple should certainly allow alternative app stores, and Google should make it easier and safer for customers to install alternative app stores, but I never want to see governments get into that market.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#288

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 1:06 AM UTC

tozeur wrote: post #261

webmobdev wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. I vehemently disagree - in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data, and the biggest lie they sell is that they don't do anything with your data, unlike other corporates. From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default, and claim…

This sounds like privacy fear mongering What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads?

> What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads?

The same part that has Microsoft doing it -- they can make additional money from it regardless of whether the user is paying them already.

Which isn't to say that Apple is actually doing it, but if they're not, that's not why.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#289

Post by flyinglizard » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 1:08 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #281

colejohnson66 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that.

> Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that. I'm sympathetic to this, because I do think it's great that Apple values user privacy. But I think it's unfortunate that the perception is that the only way to get that privacy is to use a heavily locked-down d…

The problem with open devices is that at some point someone is going to undercut you by providing a "free" product and then we're back in square one of trading user data - and in the process you created a fragmentation hell.

Nah, give me expensive, locked down products (as long as they work). Clearly its something the consumers want, hence Apple's monstrous pile of cash.

Re: Modi government to set up app store alternative to Google Play, Apple App Store

#290

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Oct 04, 2020, 1:10 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #254

webmobdev wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. I vehemently disagree - in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data, and the biggest lie they sell is that they don't do anything with your data, unlike other corporates. From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default, and claim…

Very strange to call Apple out as being a liar and can't be trusted with user data because of Safari's cookie and tracker policy. Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you.

> Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you.

Certainly when compared to Chrome, but Firefox? Brave? Tor Browser? No. Which is why it's so unfortunate that you can't get a real third party browser for iOS.