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Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#31
post #7

This was an interesting read but, as an adult with ADHD, all I get out of this is that medication is even more of a benefit to those with real difficulties coping with their ADHD. I've always been one to 'just deal with it' but after a few years of working through school and seeing my younger brothers go through the same thing with medication, I realized that I was essentially just handicapping myself. Now I take med…

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

It sounds like you've had too many bad reactions to want to keep trying, but did you try Concerta/Ritalin? That's what I was on when I was younger, and it seemed effective. I'm on Vyvanse now.

The only major side effect that's a problem for me is the utter loss of appetite. Frustratingly, it's not that I'm not hungry, I just don't want food. So my stomach will start hurting and I force myself to eat, but it's a challenge. Plus earlier this year I had to give up sugar to account for prediabetes, every day is a struggle to make myself get enough calories. Still, the ability to stay focused on a task for 15 minutes, or even just process my students' sentences, is worth it.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take 30-MG Adderall XRs, my brothers both take IR before classes since they have more downtime, but I work from home so most days I wake up and work until 4-5PM at my desk. Also worth mentioning that we all take the doctor recommended dosages, I worked my way up from 10MG doses and I absolutely do not recommend self-medicating in any way.

you wouldn't know anything about adhd meds and depression/anxiety? I've had panic attacks this year, I had depression years ago, went to therapy a lot better on that front. Enter: Xoloft followed by Trintellix (1 week in). I dealt w/ them pretty well, I'd go lay down, breathe and maybe take a cat nap, wake up in 30 minutes go back to work feeling like a million dollars. Now, not so much. So, I started xoloft a month…

This is absolutely something you should be working with a psychiatrist to regulate and find the dosage that works best for you. I don't take any medication for anxiety/depression but I regularly smoke pot and that does wonders for my anxiety. Of course, for some people pot can have the opposite effect which is why using it to self-medicate is a risky proposition.

Honestly my best advice is that, if you aren't having a good experience with your psychologist/psychiatrist you should find a better one. I've been lucky enough to be with a therapist who worked well for me as a teenager that I recently started seeing again for my anxiety. He recommends me to a local outpatient psychiatry department for my ADHD meds so I don't have to switch, but I don't know how much use the meds would be if I wasn't able to talk to him regularly.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#33
post #3

i have severe ADD, and i dont have the patience with myself to read enough of this article to benefit my understanding of it.

Many years ago I read the preface to the behemoth of a book that is Infinite Jest by DFW. I don't remember the wording of the preface, but I recall it arguing that the sheer size of the book could be regarded both as a cultural experience as well as a mental exercise. The author of the preface argued that when (or perhaps if) you finished the book you would feel like you've just run a marathon. You would be highly fi…

I have ADHD, and I don't have the patience with myself to read enough of your reply to benefit my understanding of it.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#34

Wondering if this is why marijuana makes me insanely productive. Both impact dopamine. It just sucks that I get addicted to weed because I'm super productive. I just need a way to prevent myself from having marijuana before anything social or public.

Dopamine isn’t a simple 1-dimensional axis that moves up or down with drug use. There are many different pathways that use dopamine as their signaling molecule. Some dopamine receptors are involved in recording positive events, while other dopamine pathways record negative events.

The role of dopamine as an answer to all things reward or motivation is greatly exaggerate in the pop-neuroscience articles online. Doing nearly anything goal-oriented or even remotely rewarding is associated with dopaminergic activity.

People also tend to overlook the fact that the stimulants used in ADHD treatment also have significant norepinephrine activity which contributes to their pharmacological effects. Purely dopaminergic drugs often aren’t as energizing as you’d expect. In fact, selective dopamine agonist medications can induce narcolepsy-like symptoms where patients struggle to stay awake due to the complex nature of dopamine activity in the brain.

In your case, it’s possible that you’re naturally motivated but THC is causing disinhibition to override whatever is preventing you from being productive (anxiety). THC is also known for making boring tasks feel interesting, but it’s also known for decreasing motivation and making people feel like they’re accomplishing a lot more than they really are. In other words, it’s not a solution to anything. You’d be well served to spend some time exploring this with a psychiatrist or two.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#35
post #3

i have severe ADD, and i dont have the patience with myself to read enough of this article to benefit my understanding of it.

The good news is that you don’t need to. In fact, these articles tend to give people a false feeling of understanding, and an impression that ADHD is purely a chemical situation in the brain that can only be treated with drugs.

That’s not really true. Medication can absolutely help for severe cases, but falling into the trap of thinking that ADHD is a purely chemical problem that can only be addressed with chemical solutions can lead people to neglect the important lifestyle and self-discipline changes that will really help their situation in the long term.

Don’t get caught up in ideas that ADHD is “just dopamine”, because that’s a path to ignoring the fact that personal changes and therapy can improve ADHD immensely.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took adderal for year. Completely life changing. My focus and energy level were on par with a normal persons. Unfortunately it was far too hard on the body. Started stroking out on it. Plus it interacted with almost every Medicane I’ve been prescribed. Tried vyvanse. Only one side effect. The deepest most profound sadness imaginable. Would sit for hours just “sad”. Nothing was bothering me. Worked fine aside from tha…

Having gone through this with my fam, given that you seem to have reactions to every med, have you considered it may be autism or aspurgers? ADHD and autism are often seen together, and reactions to other meds also seems to be fairly common. I just wanted to throw that out there because this realization that it's not just ADHD, not just anxiety, etc has changed our life dramatically... and there are meds that can hel…

Bipolar, schizophrenia, and depression can also cause attention deficient. It is extremely common for children with Bipolar to be misdiagnosed as ADHD.

Depression is usually easier to diagnose accurately. Schizophrenia can be hit or miss, depending on severity. In my case (I'm bipolar), psychosis was so much a part of my normal life that I was completely blind to it and my external symptoms weren't severe enough to be recognizable.

For just ADHD, There are also other classes of medication that can help. Atomoxetine, bupropion, guanfacine, and clonidine are alternative medications that work differently than first line stimulants.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#37
post #7

This was an interesting read but, as an adult with ADHD, all I get out of this is that medication is even more of a benefit to those with real difficulties coping with their ADHD. I've always been one to 'just deal with it' but after a few years of working through school and seeing my younger brothers go through the same thing with medication, I realized that I was essentially just handicapping myself. Now I take med…

> I've always been one to 'just deal with it' but after a few years of working through school and seeing my younger brothers go through the same thing with medication, I realized that I was essentially just handicapping myself.

That's not entirely true, though. There is a lot of value in learning good habits to cope with ADHD and developing systems and mental models to improve your ADHD situation. ADHD isn't a purely dopaminergic "chemical imbalance" in the brain that can only be improved with chemical solutions, similar to how depression isn't entirely a chemical imbalance of serotonin.

One of the downsides of aggressive ADHD medication treatment is that it can handicap learning of good habits and coping strategies. Some, thought not all, patients quickly learn to rely on the stimulant effect of their medication to get anything done, assuming that medication is the only way to improve. This becomes a problem as the motivating effects of stimulant medication wear off after months or years, leaving only the concentration-enhancing side effects. Internet forums are full of 20-something ADHD patients who think the only way to address their ADHD is ever increasing doses of stimulants, but eventually they hit prescribing limits and increasing side effects. The solution is to approach ADHD as a combined treatment with minimal medication and heavy emphasis on self-discipline and healthy habits.

Regarding this study: Don't forget that ADHD medications aren't simply dopamine dispensers. All of the stimulant ADHD medications have significant norepinephrine activity, as well. There are many reasons why pure dopamine agonists aren't effective for ADHD.

> I wonder how different things would've been for me if I had started taking an effective medication at 16 and not at 25.

In reality, you may have benefited greatly by spending your formative years teaching yourself coping mechanisms and learning good study habits before introducing ADHD medication.

Many people take stimulant treatment for years or decades, but the unfortunate reality is that the long-term effectiveness of stimulants isn't exactly a sure thing. Clinical trials and studies rarely run for more than a few months. The studies on long-term patients are mixed, but not encourage for long-term effectiveness of stimulants ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11322742/ ). If you only recently started taking stimulants, you might be in somewhat of a "honeymoon phase" where the core effects are still strong. Note that after years of use, people will tend to overestimate the effects of the drug due to the severity of withdrawal symptoms on days off.

In short, I'd encourage you to continue addressing your ADHD symptoms with ever-improving self discipline, personal habits, and healthy lifestyle choices. The medication is part of a treatment regimen, but it shouldn't be the entirety of one's treatment regimen.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take 30-MG Adderall XRs, my brothers both take IR before classes since they have more downtime, but I work from home so most days I wake up and work until 4-5PM at my desk. Also worth mentioning that we all take the doctor recommended dosages, I worked my way up from 10MG doses and I absolutely do not recommend self-medicating in any way.

you wouldn't know anything about adhd meds and depression/anxiety? I've had panic attacks this year, I had depression years ago, went to therapy a lot better on that front. Enter: Xoloft followed by Trintellix (1 week in). I dealt w/ them pretty well, I'd go lay down, breathe and maybe take a cat nap, wake up in 30 minutes go back to work feeling like a million dollars. Now, not so much. So, I started xoloft a month…

How is your sleep? Exercising enough?

Biology is complex, the drugs mess with that system in direct and indirect ways. Coupled with lag and resistance, it makes accounting for outcomes hard.

ADHD is interesting in that to me, our interaction and methods of coping with it need to be participatory. The drugs don't work on their own, we need to still make lists, walk around, exercise, crack jokes. Just realizing you have it pushes it off the mainline to a branch.

I'd say slow down, do some science and take great notes.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#39
post #7

This was an interesting read but, as an adult with ADHD, all I get out of this is that medication is even more of a benefit to those with real difficulties coping with their ADHD. I've always been one to 'just deal with it' but after a few years of working through school and seeing my younger brothers go through the same thing with medication, I realized that I was essentially just handicapping myself. Now I take med…

> I've always been one to 'just deal with it' but after a few years of working through school and seeing my younger brothers go through the same thing with medication, I realized that I was essentially just handicapping myself. That's not entirely true, though. There is a lot of value in learning good habits to cope with ADHD and developing systems and mental models to improve your ADHD situation. ADHD isn't a purely…

> In short, I'd encourage you to continue addressing your ADHD symptoms with ever-improving self discipline, personal habits, and healthy lifestyle choices. The medication is part of a treatment regimen, but it shouldn't be the entirety of one's treatment regimen.

No, no, no, no. As someone who suffered remarkable mental turmoil over my inability to focus, despite reading books about it, asking everyone for help with my problems, just no, I hate this kind of puritanical thinking, it's exactly this kind of thinking which adds to the stigma of ADHD medication. The very first _day_ I took the medication I knew I'd stumbled upon something monumental. And then I realized that all those years of struggle in school and college, they were all for naught.

The only right answer is: see a psychologist if you think you have a problem, and get medicated if you and your psychologist feels you do have a problem.

> In reality, you may have benefited greatly by spending your formative years teaching yourself coping mechanisms and learning good study habits before introducing ADHD medication.

Nope. It just shit on my self-esteem and resulted in depression because I thought I was just not cut out for the things I wanted to be able to do.

Re: Adults with ADHD show decreased function in brain dopamine reward pathway (2010)

#40
post #3

i have severe ADD, and i dont have the patience with myself to read enough of this article to benefit my understanding of it.

Many years ago I read the preface to the behemoth of a book that is Infinite Jest by DFW. I don't remember the wording of the preface, but I recall it arguing that the sheer size of the book could be regarded both as a cultural experience as well as a mental exercise. The author of the preface argued that when (or perhaps if) you finished the book you would feel like you've just run a marathon. You would be highly fi…

Sure, I vaguely remember seeing a bunch of studies about how instant access to information, social media, "mindless" entertainment and constant stimulation is badly hurting our ability to focus. I've personally stopped listening to music or reading social media/news on my phone when I commute or go for walks, as I find the quiet time really helps my focus and attention longer term.
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