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Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

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Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#371
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. Isn't that the same argument people use in the US to justify why more Black Americans are incarcerated / killed by cops? If that is actually your stance, I'm confused as to how you see Australia as fundamentally different from the US.

Because we had a royal commission into this and that is what we found. https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 Seriously this trying to draw false comparisons with America where there aren't any is exactly what the OPs article is about.

This is a couple of vloggers lifting quotes from the royal commission and discussing it. It’s an opinion piece, nothing more.

In this video they also say that changing the date of Australia Day is “ridiculous”. That’s not necessarily bad in and of itself, but it’s certainly not an opinion shared by all aboriginal people and it strongly suggests that they aren’t impartial.

If this is the best you’ve got to defend your views, you don’t got much at all.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My spouse grew up in Botswana. Despite living a few miles from the site of the first known location of a religious ceremony of our species —- in other words a place of transcendent human history, of Black history —- it was always the colonizer centered in her formal schooling. An anecdote that in my experience in the Caribbean and in Africa ( I am most familiar with southern Africa) the process of decolonization stil…

You do realise that your wife's Bantu-speaking ancestors displaced the Khoi and San (also known as bushmen) when they invaded the area which is now known as Botswana I hope? If you insist on decolonising Botswana it is not the western coloniser (who gave up its colonies in 1966) who bears the brunt of shame but the Bantu-speaking Kalanga since they displaced the original population - the Khoi and San go back a long t…

I’m sorry if you interpreted my comments in this way. My point was precisely the one that you seem to make, that in that in the English medium schools, this nuanced history was not conveyed, and that is the problem.

In fact, my wife’s family is among the “colonized colonizer”. My wife’s family moved to Botswana in the 1970s. They were originally from Tanzania, and had originally come from India, fleeing their own particular discrimination. They left Tanzania in the 1980s, because, in short, the country was trying to find a path in which Black Tanzanians could find a way to realize a full self determination. Their family did not want be a continued part of the problem.

Before my father in law was the thought that it was better to “un-settle” a place rather than be a continued part of its settler legacy. For many reasons, he was welcomed by the Batswana. I think it was a persistent asking of permission to enter, to join the table humbly and with respect for the people, a respect that they have the resourcefulness and brilliance to know what course is best for them. Humility.

The point being that even as another of the wave of “colonized colonizers” —- people who derive privilege by proximity to a ideal of what is presumed to be “better”, more western —- there was no mention of the rich history and the erasure of the indigenous people in the education she received.

I have been to the Three Dikgosi monument a few times, and felt it strange that for all this ancient, immeasurable history, the millenia of stories of the San an Khoi is condensed to a small mention.

The archaeological site a few hours from Gaborone, the site of a religious ceremony whose significance is lost to time. I just pieced together, but I know it predates the 1700s by tens of thousands of years.

So yes, there are layers of colonization and each prevents an accounting, a true embodiment of truth and reconciliation. There is a need to “un-settle”, to question the orthodox histories.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be misreading that paper because it doesn't back up your claim. Blacks are more likely to have confrontations with police and also more likely to be killed by them. There are explanations for that which aren't police racism. Blacks also have a higher fatality rate for being murdered by criminals. The ratio is many times higher than 2.8. Are you saying the criminals are racist?

To be clear, you may not understand what the problem is. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police It's 1 kill every 328 thousands citizens. In my country it's 1 every 20 millions. 20,000,000/328,000 =~ 60 If you can't see that's what you would expect from a narco state run by warlord criminals, I don't really know how to help you. Or maybe that's exactly what you want. Because what you…

I don't think you are understanding or respecting their argument. Population is not a relevant factor. Violent crime is the relevant factor. The amount of violent crime committed by members of a group is what correlates to higher shootings of that group. Population based analysis has many faults. For example: Say one group consisting of white people has 100 of 1 million people drowning. One group of black people has only 1 out of 1 million people drowning. You might say wow white people have a drowning problem, they can't swim. But, in this case race is irrelevant. If you looked closer you might find one group consisting of white people are more likely to live by a lake and go swimming. It is impossible to have a drowning problem when you aren't swimming. This is why population based analysis is useless and refuted by articles such as the linked.

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-rac...

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#374

Adele, the singer, was photographed at the Nottinghill Carnival (a massive Carribean street festival over the August bank holiday in London) with her hair in Bantu Knots and wearing a bikini top in the colours of the Jamaican flag. As soon as it was on twitter the you started getting tweets from Black Americans about cultural appropriation, but this was met in turn by fierce opposition from African and Carribean post…

As a British person with Caribbean family background, I found the reaction to this from the internet so strange. In Britain it's normal that the different cultures here mix. Shops selling Baltic bread, next to shops selling jerk chicken, across the road from a traditional English pub. People of all colours and backgrounds frequenting all of them. From an outside perspective, people in the USA seem very pre-occupied w…

It's normal in the USA as well, only the vocal micro minority on twitter get enraged at everything. I really hope it's just a decade long trend that will go away. Social justice warriors get mocked for a reason.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be misreading that paper because it doesn't back up your claim. Blacks are more likely to have confrontations with police and also more likely to be killed by them. There are explanations for that which aren't police racism. Blacks also have a higher fatality rate for being murdered by criminals. The ratio is many times higher than 2.8. Are you saying the criminals are racist?

To be clear, you may not understand what the problem is. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police It's 1 kill every 328 thousands citizens. In my country it's 1 every 20 millions. 20,000,000/328,000 =~ 60 If you can't see that's what you would expect from a narco state run by warlord criminals, I don't really know how to help you. Or maybe that's exactly what you want. Because what you…

First, I don’t live in the US. Second, I was clearly disagreeing with your claim of racism. I never said anything about violence levels.

Maybe you should try responding to what people say instead of spewing word salad.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, you may not understand what the problem is. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police It's 1 kill every 328 thousands citizens. In my country it's 1 every 20 millions. 20,000,000/328,000 =~ 60 If you can't see that's what you would expect from a narco state run by warlord criminals, I don't really know how to help you. Or maybe that's exactly what you want. Because what you…

First, I don’t live in the US. Second, I was clearly disagreeing with your claim of racism. I never said anything about violence levels. Maybe you should try responding to what people say instead of spewing word salad.

I simply posted statistics about police killings that say they are disproportionate against people of colour

It's you that spewed your salad when tried to read it as "people of colour deserve it for their behaviour"

Maybe you are the racist too...

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, you may not understand what the problem is. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police It's 1 kill every 328 thousands citizens. In my country it's 1 every 20 millions. 20,000,000/328,000 =~ 60 If you can't see that's what you would expect from a narco state run by warlord criminals, I don't really know how to help you. Or maybe that's exactly what you want. Because what you…

I don't think you are understanding or respecting their argument. Population is not a relevant factor. Violent crime is the relevant factor. The amount of violent crime committed by members of a group is what correlates to higher shootings of that group. Population based analysis has many faults. For example: Say one group consisting of white people has 100 of 1 million people drowning. One group of black people has…

Violent crime in US is relevant because the state is the one committing it.

In US there are 6 homicide every 100 thousands of population, in Europe is 0.6, ten times less, in Japan it's 0.5.

Do you wanna know some country that have similar stats to US?

Nigeria, Sudan, Angola, Cuba, Somalia, Burundi, Zambia

Some countries that have better stats?

Rwanda (2.3), Mozambico, Camerun (1.4), Algeria (1.3),Burkina Faso (2.1)

That already speaks volumes about what's wrong in US society, but if that wasn't enough to be considered outside the western standards, police killing stats are completely off the charts

What you fail to understand with your simplistic view is that if the police kills, there is going to be a group that is more marginalized and victimised than any other, regardless if they live or not near a lake, because of prejudice and prejudice is a form of racism.

If the police don't kill, like in every other developed western country (which US is not in these regards) there is not going to be any accountability of state enforced racism, but simply episodes of racism, because the single copo is a racist.

If you believe that you can't have a drowning problem if you live in a city, consider that the majority of drownings that happen in my country are people not living near water that go to swim.

Your mistake is believing that police killings of people of colour don't happen near a lake.

You know what is true instead?

That police can't kill people of colour if they don't live when they serve.

Your proposition reinforce the hypothesis.

Also because

- you posted no relevant fact, only your opinions ("say one group ... say another group" say you are wong and making up numbers, no? Is it possible you are?)

- the link you posted only talks about police report, which is a source incredibly biased. Police reports are known to be falsified to protect the police and cover their abuses.

- we don't even kill mobsters and still we have almost zero killings by the police and ten times less homicides per unit of population of US. It is entirely possible if you live in a developed country that is able to produce a civilized society. US is arguably incapable of doing that.

- in the end you support he idea that the only way for people of colour to not be shot and killed by the police is, using your metaphor, to avoid swimming . Which is called segregation. That's why from a distance we look at US in horror. Because US is a scary society, not only for people of colour, but especially for minorities like people of colour, which are American, have been for centuries, but are not considered as such.

You should see a black American shot dead by the police as an American shot by the police. You still see at him like someone who's dead because he dared to swim.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise that your wife's Bantu-speaking ancestors displaced the Khoi and San (also known as bushmen) when they invaded the area which is now known as Botswana I hope? If you insist on decolonising Botswana it is not the western coloniser (who gave up its colonies in 1966) who bears the brunt of shame but the Bantu-speaking Kalanga since they displaced the original population - the Khoi and San go back a long t…

I’m sorry if you interpreted my comments in this way. My point was precisely the one that you seem to make, that in that in the English medium schools, this nuanced history was not conveyed, and that is the problem. In fact, my wife’s family is among the “colonized colonizer”. My wife’s family moved to Botswana in the 1970s. They were originally from Tanzania, and had originally come from India, fleeing their own par…

> So yes, there are layers of colonization and each prevents an accounting, a true embodiment of truth and reconciliation.

True

> There is a need to “un-settle”, to question the orthodox histories.

That is where things go wrong. As you stated yourself, colonisers are often colonised themselves by later colonisers. The success of mankind as the dominant species on the planet literally depends on groups being displaced by other groups, otherwise everyone would have stayed in Eden - being the fertile parts of Africa where Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved. Some groups got displaced, moved into neighbouring territory and displaced or enslaved whatever group of people happened to live there. Fast-forward a few decades or centuries and the process was repeated, the former colonisers now get 'colonised' themselves. At this moment in time it gets hard to decide who is the 'oppressed' and who is the 'oppressor' since both groups will have done their share of 'oppressing' and both will have undergone 'oppression'. If you only look at one specific groups as being the 'oppressors' the way people like Ibram X. Kendi and Robin diAngelo do you end up with a distorted view of history where you assign 'victim' status to oppressors and ignore potential 'victimisation' of the designated oppressor, a good example here being the many African tribes who partook in the capture, transport and sales of slaves to Arab and western slave traders being assigned 'oppressed' status versus the Irish who were enslaved themselves being assigned 'oppressor' status. Since the 'oppressed' status has been turned into a form of social currency lending speaking rights and preferential treatment to those who carry it while those who carry 'oppressor' status have to stand back in line and provide for those with 'oppressed' status this system often leads to more injustice and with that an increase in social tension and a decrease in social cohesion. In other words, it breaks up society.

We do not want to break up society. Those who do want this should state their goal honestly and go to the elections with this stated purpose, if enough people vote for them they can get their way. Those who want to break up society by means of force have to accept that the majority of the population opposes their intentions and that the force of law can and should be used against them, just like it should be used against any other group which commits violence.

And that, in a nutshell, is why the need to "un-settle", to question the orthodox histories - in other words why deconstruction according to Critical Theory - does not work. The cake is too thick, too much mixed up to say which layer is the most tasty. Better have the cake as it is and make a note to tweak the recipe so it comes out better next time.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#379
post #348
post #2

+1 from Australia. Our police kill more white people in custody per capita than black. I'm so over hearing about this bullshit here. The aboriginal people of Australia face real problems. The police isn't one of them. PS, keep your debates to yourselves too. Nobody cares and your media cutting Trump out of context is obvious and gross. You are literally becoming the fake news he always said you were.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. We don't want flamewars here, and you did it repeatedly in this thread. Not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Lol, correcting people taking me out of context and calling me racist is trying to start a flamewar? Ok dude?

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#380
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we had a royal commission into this and that is what we found. https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 Seriously this trying to draw false comparisons with America where there aren't any is exactly what the OPs article is about.

This is a couple of vloggers lifting quotes from the royal commission and discussing it. It’s an opinion piece, nothing more. In this video they also say that changing the date of Australia Day is “ridiculous”. That’s not necessarily bad in and of itself, but it’s certainly not an opinion shared by all aboriginal people and it strongly suggests that they aren’t impartial. If this is the best you’ve got to defend your…

That wasn't just a couple of vlooggers...

Jordan shanks is one of the small handful of legitimate journalists we have in this country.

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