Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#191

Post by t0mbstone » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #102

plutonorm wrote: post #27

They'll also get a burst of creativity. I know that whenever I am unemployed my creativity just gets diverted into the nearest interesting endeavour. One of those might have paid off and become a business. Quite likely in fact, if I hadn't had to work. I've often considered going on benefits so that I can work on my own ideas unhindered by work life. But I wanted a family more than I wanted time to pursue my other dr…

Please actually read the article. You couldn't be further from the truth. This isn't about people temporarily out of a job for whom having a lot of free time is a breath of fresh air. This is about people who have spent decades without a job or on-and-off underpaid jobs because they missed a critical, narrow window in their lives where full-time employment with actual career prospects was available. They feel stifled…

I read the article and all I could think was, "wow, what a load of excuses".

The idea that you can only get a job if you take advantage of a critical window in your life is nonsense.

There is plenty of work for people who are willing to work. For example, you could go door to door in your apartment complex and offer to take people's trash out to the dumpster. You could offer to clean their house, wash their dishes, do their laundry, walk their dogs, whatever. Mow people's lawns, weed their flowers, whatever.

If you are trustworthy and reliable and even slightly entrepreneurial, you will have more work than you know what to do with. It might not pay well (or hardly at all) at first, but it will build over time.

But instead, these losers are sitting at home watching anime and listening to K-Pop and moaning about how they missed their window of opportunity, while they live off their parents for years.

Gimme a friggin break.

I could definitely see this as being an issue with culture and depression, though. If the culture represses and shames entrepreneurs or people doing menial labor, for example, that would be a big issue. And if you are depressed, it's hard to find motivation to get out there and work and be rejected by all of the people who turn you down as you go door to door.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#192

Post by freetime2 » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

rib3ye wrote: post #41

brazzy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how economy works. There is no such thing in general as "too many people for the economy". "The economy" is the sum of goods and services produced and consumed. Everyone who lives consumes, and could easily consume more. The economy is generally limited by the ability to produce, and is generally limited by the number of working-age people to do the producing. Unemployment can be result of production being…

Like others having lived there for a short period of time, I agree with this observation. The cultural premium on risk, that may merely inconvenience someone, is unreasonably high (by my standard, anyway). Ever have to pay a bribe to a landlord to rent an apartment as a matter of accepted business protocol? Look up "reikin". Then you'll realize why some think it's totally reasonable to live out of an internet cafe.

Calling it a bribe is seriously misleading. A bribe implies illegal or dishonest behavior. But reikin is perfectly legal, and is typically fully disclosed up front in the rental listing.

It’s basically just a one-time fee that is paid up front - something which is not at all uncommon in the world of commerce.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#193

Post by krrishd » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #127

I feel like the "Jobless and living with parents" pejorative is missing the mark. Jobless -- So what? If a country has figured out how to provide for its people w/o jobs, so what? For example if we had perfect AI-robot slaves we'd all be jobless. Would it be a problem? Maybe we should ask people why they want a job, maybe what they want to do doesnt require one? "Living with their parents" - Again, so what? Much of t…

> For example if we had perfect AI-robot slaves we'd all be jobless. Would it be a problem?

i mean, it almost certainly would be, right? feel like we very instinctively/subconsciously derive our self-worth from what we're worth to our society (which tautologically comes from the share of responsibilities we take on).

maybe the jobs wouldn't resemble anything like those of today, but i have no doubt we have an innate need to be doing things that

1) are necessary/valuable to other people

2) visibly satisfy 1)

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#194

Post by zajio1am » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #50

The American obsession over living or not with parents sounds almost pathological to me. Being jobless is issue. Long term inability to find partner is issue. But, if you don't have partner, what exactly is the reason for moving to live alone and why is focus specifically on "omg someone lives with parents"? I mean, multigenerational households were historical norm. It is not something super special that happened jus…

> But, if you don't have partner, what exactly is the reason for moving to live alone and why is focus specifically on "omg someone lives with parents"?

Freedom, independence, personal autonomy. Even having good relations with my parents i prefer to have some distance and meet them on equal terms.

And i do not know about 'American'. Preference for independent living seems common also here in Europe.

> I mean, multigenerational households were historical norm.

Yes, because people cannot afford independent home from young age. Once society became wealthier, norms changed.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#195

Post by mgolawala » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #127

I feel like the "Jobless and living with parents" pejorative is missing the mark. Jobless -- So what? If a country has figured out how to provide for its people w/o jobs, so what? For example if we had perfect AI-robot slaves we'd all be jobless. Would it be a problem? Maybe we should ask people why they want a job, maybe what they want to do doesnt require one? "Living with their parents" - Again, so what? Much of t…

The "So What" comes into play here in that this may not be the situation that this generation wants to be in. It is one thing, if this generation is choosing to not seek employment and cohabit with their parents, it is quite another if they have no choice and are being forced into this situation.

It is a bit like saying, people are living in tents on the sidewalk. "So what?". Plenty of people live with less than a tent and some even choose to do so. We have to go one step further and ask ourselves if this is a life that these people are choosing to lead, or if it is one that has been thrust upon them through a lack of options.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#196

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #148

maerF0x0 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again. We're failing to address the "so what?" What does this scenario represent that is _the actual problem_ of the matter?

It's just not sustainable if everyone did this. The economy needs people who are gainfully employed and not single and living with their parents. I say this as someone who is single and currently living with my parents.

The problem then is an economy which simultaneously denies opportunity to those in need of it and needs their contribution.

Such a society would be pathologically deranged.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#197

Post by saiojd » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #127

I feel like the "Jobless and living with parents" pejorative is missing the mark. Jobless -- So what? If a country has figured out how to provide for its people w/o jobs, so what? For example if we had perfect AI-robot slaves we'd all be jobless. Would it be a problem? Maybe we should ask people why they want a job, maybe what they want to do doesnt require one? "Living with their parents" - Again, so what? Much of t…

Of course it's perjorative. The issue isn't with staying at home, it's with staying at home and doing nothing. If you have all your needs provided for you should seek out to do something meaningful.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#198

Post by com2kid » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

creata wrote: post #135

glouwbug wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stresses of university already propels you into adult hood, and by living with your parents, the extra money you save on housing will set you up better for when you do move out. Living with your parents is not the definition of childhood. The definition of childhood is not realizing rent and food cost large sums of money, or that credit systems allow you to purchase rent and food without money, or that houses can…

What stresses do you have in mind? (I'm a third-year right now and I've had nothing to stress about and nothing to do. I just read HN and developer blogs all day. I'd definitely hesitate to say I'm an adult.)

Planning your own meals, fixing things around the apartment when they break[1], unclogging the toilet, planning your own schedule.

That said college is much less stressful, success criteria are well defined (homework, tests, internships, graduate, job) and a lot of things are taken care of for you.

But it is a huge step up compared to high school.

[1] Assuming you don't live in a dorm and you are renting from some semi-shady place that is slow to respond to maintenance requests because they don't figure students will complain.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#199

Post by paulpan » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #161

maerF0x0 wrote: post #127

I feel like the "Jobless and living with parents" pejorative is missing the mark. Jobless -- So what? If a country has figured out how to provide for its people w/o jobs, so what? For example if we had perfect AI-robot slaves we'd all be jobless. Would it be a problem? Maybe we should ask people why they want a job, maybe what they want to do doesnt require one? "Living with their parents" - Again, so what? Much of t…

I guess if you remove all other data points/context and only stick with the words "jobless" and "living with parents" I guess "so what" is a valid question. It would be a valid question for most issues where ones has barely any other information. But if you read a little about the price that japan (and this demographic in particular) has been paying and what they think about it, I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone…

Right, and I think it's the negative stigma of the former ("jobless") than the latter ("living with parents").

Multi-generational family cohabitation is nothing new and still the norm in many parts of the world. There's many advantages of it, though also carries risks (example is Italy's seniors exposure to COVID19).

The "jobless" part is more cross-cultural in its negative stigma, on the expectation that adults are contributing members of their respective societies. But as this article goes into detail, the quality of the job matters as much as having one. "Gainfully employed" > "employed", especially for the person in question.

I think another aspect of this is the age of the individual. When one is in their early 20s, then being "jobless" and "living with parents" is much more acceptable (both by the self and the society). But as one gets older, such as in the article's 40+ year old norm, then it becomes much harder. Add on top the Japanese/Asian emphasis on image and honor, then the resulting perceived sense of shame/failure can be very burdensome.

Re: Japan’s lost generation is still jobless and living with their parents

#200

Post by com2kid » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

T-R wrote: post #170

kiliancs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this is a partial answer, but by those standards the US is also similarly behind. For example, still commonly use checks and they are nowhere near transitioning to the metric system.

While I don't think Japan should be judged solely on its fax machines (they're ahead in some places and behind in others), there is a difference with fax machine usage in Japan vs the US - they're a trailing indicator of another bottleneck. Fax machines are so widespread in Japan largely because they ease the process of physically stamping documents with a registered stamp (a hanko), which is used instead of a signat…

> So far they've failed to digitize them, and it's often cited as a huge cause of bureaucratic slowdown, especially in the pandemic.

Compare this to the US where Bill Clinton signed the Electronic Signatures Act[1] back in 2000.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Globa...