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USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

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Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#611

Post by CogentHedgehog »

jorgekong wrote: post #508
CogentHedgehog wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, USB-C is one of those things that for me just works. I buy USB-PD chargers and cables from reputable brands, and everything just charges. When I use the cables for data transfer, it just works -- no muss or fuss like there were with some of the charge-only converter cables for charging micro-USB devices. Now if I were using Thunderbolt 3, yeah, you need a higher-end cable and there are restrictions on cable len…

Which specific cables (or brands) would you recommend?

Anker, Belkin, and Cable Matters cables are solid. For chargers, Anker and RavPower. Aukey can be good too.

For other brands you need to check the specs carefully to see what the rated power and transmission speeds are (and take anything from a fly-by-night brand out of China with a grain of salt).

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#612

Post by Chris2048 »

kalleboo wrote: post #592
willis936 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timeline here doesn’t jive. The Pixel C came out in 2015 with a USB-C port using the same SoC as the Switch (2017). Nintendo’s non-compliance is intentional.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Nintendo has a long history of proprietary plugs, if they wanted to make something proprietary, they would have just done it and nobody would bat an eye, they wouldn't bother making a slightly buggy USB-C implementation. Do you also think that the Raspberry Pi 4 USB-C incompatibility is intentional? That came out waaay later

Only useful if incompetence is punished equally, otherwise every malicious actor plays dumb.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#613

Post by mohaine »

jk700 wrote: post #547
mohaine wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really correct though and gives a false sense of security. The house breakers are sized for the wires in the wall, not the device plugged in. Those should have their own internal fuses to protect themselves. Most lamp cords are only sized 100ish Watts or ~ 1A with the bulb being the only fuse. If these somehow pulled 15A for any amount of time the wire would quickly get smoking hot but you still plug them…

Right, it's even more complicated. Such breakers also don't trigger at specified current exactly. They have two breakers inside of them, one for overload protection triggering once it heats up, could be an hour for 2x current if starts cold, and one for short circuit protection triggering in less than a second, but on 3x+, 5x+ currents, etc. So a 15A breaker, a 15A outlet and a cable for 15A all could easily see 30A…

I actually used to calibrate and QC high end breakers for a well know company who's name is a letter and a shape. To pass QC the breakers would need to heat trip when run at 135% Amps between roughly 20-45 minutes. Both too fast and too slow were a failure.

The actual range was a bit different by Ampage which I never quite understood.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#614

Post by willis936 »

kalleboo wrote: post #592
willis936 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timeline here doesn’t jive. The Pixel C came out in 2015 with a USB-C port using the same SoC as the Switch (2017). Nintendo’s non-compliance is intentional.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Nintendo has a long history of proprietary plugs, if they wanted to make something proprietary, they would have just done it and nobody would bat an eye, they wouldn't bother making a slightly buggy USB-C implementation. Do you also think that the Raspberry Pi 4 USB-C incompatibility is intentional? That came out waaay later

This is assuming Nintendo is incompetent. They have been making toys for 100 years and have been consistent pioneers in consumer electronics. They are no stranger to proprietary connectors. They opted to not develop one this time because it was seen as an unnecessary cost. Instead they took the parts of a well developed standard they liked and cut the corners they wanted to cut. They would have had a harder time finding an OTS non-compliant solution than an OTS compliant one. Playing by the standard cost too much. The only narrative here is “Nintendo sees no one is watching the cookie jar and takes from it. They prefer to be the only one with cookies anyway and don’t see the benefit of a communal jar.”, not “Nintendo don’t know what they’re doing”.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#615

Post by izacus »

crote wrote: post #204
izacus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the situation be better when you'd have to explain why does his monitor have 3 different connection ports but not the 5th one he needs? Or that he's lacking the right converter cables for all different 5 possible types?

"If it fits, it works" is pretty easy to explain. An adapter cable is also easy to explain: it fits, so it will work. With USB C, there are scenarios where you can have an adapter cable and it'll still not work.

Easy to explain but extremely inconvenient for users because it doesn't gracefully degrade like USB-C can in a large amount of cases.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#616

Post by shadowgovt »

7786655 wrote: post #556
shadowgovt wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took quite a long time to get to where you could assume an arbitrary table lamp plugged into an arbitrary wall socket would work.

USB C would be as if we could already plug arbitrary lamps into arbitrary sockets, but then someone decided the same socket that powers lamps should also be able to refuel a car and now you have to plug and pray with five different cables before your lamp will work. Also if you use the wrong one it will spray gas all over your lamp and catch fire.

Spraying gas and catching fire is precisely what it won't do. The spec is conservative about capabilities; assuming devices aren't out-and-out lying about physical capacity (which is out-of-spec), it's designed to err on the side of safe conservatism.

If you plug the lamp into the gas hose plug, it just won't turn on.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#617

Post by rsync »

vr46 wrote: post #23
jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Aha - you may find that your Switch CANNOT in fact share a charge - Nintendo's port is not necessarily safe to use with anything but its supplied charger. And I've just learned this lesson with a $60 bill from Nintendo repair after the port went pop and couldn't charge the device. I only have reputable chargers in the house from Apple and one from Anker aside from the Nintendo's own. All my apple kit works fine off t…

"I love the port, but the standard just hasn't caught up and when a company like Nintendo flouts it anyway, you have a big problem."

Can't this hazard be eliminated with some kind of "USB Condom" that would, at least, universalize your cables and ports ?

I have a USB condom that I use for standard USB ports for disabling data lines (turning them into power only cords) - I assume you could build a smarter, more sophisticated USB condom that would allow you to safeguard against these edge cases and incompatibilities ?

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#618

Post by ascagnel_ »

brigade wrote: post #481
hobofan wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are there multiple people here in the thread that say that the port on the Switch is not a USB-C port, when it says so in the official specs _right on their website_? https://www.nintendo.com/switch/tech-specs

Probably a corruption of the fact that the protocol to get HDMI out of the Switch is a proprietary alt-mode, which is why standard docks and USB-C to HDMI adapters don't work. But USB-PD chargers are very much intended to work. The docks that do work generally reversed-engineered the proprietary protocol, and some have damaged Switches because they got details wrong.

The protocol to get video-out isn’t proprietary, just rare —they’re using Mobility DisplayPort from the Switch, and converting DP to HDMI in the dock.

Of course, had they used the native HDMI side-channel (which I’m not sure had been finalized at the time), they would have been able to skip this step.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#619

Post by CubsFan1060 »

megous wrote: post #179
CubsFan1060 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. That mystifies me.

Each port can accept or give power (at various voltages) potentially or act as data sink/source (determined on connection), or have alt modes. Such device would be either quite "fun" to use, unless it had type C ports marked with dedicated functionality, so you'd have to be careful what device you plug to what port. AFAIK there's no protocol to control other ports via PD from the port you'd connect to the "main" devi…

I technically get it, but it’s amazing you’d design a solution that didn’t handle this. Seems like the pattern now is “just use usba anyway”

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#620

Post by megous »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #586
megous wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is non-standard about it? https://megous.com/dl/tmp/a0538dc39724eb2e.png

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/11181/USB-PD.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/W8UGp.jpg Once you hit the soft cap of 3 amps, you're supposed to increase the voltage. The 3-5 amp range is only supposed to be used at 20 volts.

That's all good if your sink supports sinking 20V, but some don't. Anyway, those tables describe minimum required currents for a given PDP:

  https://megous.com/dl/tmp/a4111a84934c8c8f.png
Sources can support more and it's not against the spec, as long as you detect the 5A cable.

  https://megous.com/dl/tmp/1eccbf102295a676.png
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