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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#261

Post by plaster »

core-questions wrote: post #27
plaster wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely fraught topic, and I will give a very fraught answer: I think you did the right thing in this situation. She did not express anything malicious and she corrected herself (at least partially). It sounds like your colleague was doing something anyone would do (assessing someone by the social strictures they are familiar with) and did something wrong (devoted effort to it in a hiring context, said s…

> She did not express anything malicious Well, imagine that you, a white-presenting man (what does _that_ mean) were on a phone interview with someone you couldn't see, and afterwards, you said something like, "I was trying to determine if they were Black." I'm not going to make judgement on whether that's a fair statement or not - what I am curious about is whether you think that you'd get the same kind of defense -…

> Well, imagine that you, a white-presenting man (what does _that_ mean)

If you met most of my family members, you would not think they were white, but if you met me personally, you probably would.

Only once in a long while does someone seem to read me as 'not white' (and unless I'm speaking my heritage language they usually guess wrong about what flavor.)

> were on a phone interview with someone you couldn't see, and afterwards, you said something like, "I was trying to determine if they were Black."

If I'm on the phone with someone, I am sure I am trying to figure that out. Folks who claim otherwise are most likely incorrect about what they are doing.

I would certainly know better than to say that aloud, since I grew up in a society where I know how it would be perceived, and have intuition around it. I don't have to think much to realize the implications.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#262

Post by derivagral »

occamrazor wrote: post #203
whimsicalism wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ivy League schools in industries like finance This also has to do with the fact that, in consulting and finance, it is the perception of intelligence by the customer that is much more important than the actual intelligence. Managers would rather hire the team of consultants from the Ivy League and rich people would rather pay the management fees for the Ivy League team to manage their money. In industries that are…

This doesn’t justify the practice. If my clients were racist, should I be allowed to only hire white people?

If you have racist clients, I'd expect that this would manifest more as assigning the "right" demographic of employee to the clients and keep the "wrong" ones far away from those meetings, as opposed to a straight-up hiring restriction.

I don't think GP was trying to justify the practice, but noting that this exists in domains like finance because the product is an image, not actual performance.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#263

Post by joe33433 »

astan wrote: post #59

Why is this on HN? This is clearly political.

Since most of us here are developers working across international teams, this provides helpful information to the non Indian managers to notice and stop discrimination of Brahaminical Patriarchy.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#264

Post by dorkinspace »

jfengel wrote: post #255
known wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America there is no system in place today that forces people to remain separate or keeps one CLASS subservient to another. If you were born the son of a street sweeper, but excelled, you would be fully accepted by your peers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility Not so in India. The Caste system freezes everyone in place for their life time. For someone to move from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_cas…

There is a similar system in the US, based on skin color. The article's title references the book How To Be An Antiracist . It's very much on people's minds today, and the article was written to see what lessons the US can learn from the situation in India (including Indians in the US, where caste-ism remains a problem). https://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Antiracist-Ibram-Kendi/dp/0525...

>There is a similar system in the US, based on skin color.

Is there? It is very easy to find instances of poor black kids that are now multi-millionaires due to sports. Lebron James, for example, grew up without a father figure and in a poor household. He is now a billionaire.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#265

Post by gamblor956 »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #2

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

Report the individual to HR.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#266

Post by Bang2Bay »

dorkinspace wrote: post #264
jfengel wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a similar system in the US, based on skin color. The article's title references the book How To Be An Antiracist . It's very much on people's minds today, and the article was written to see what lessons the US can learn from the situation in India (including Indians in the US, where caste-ism remains a problem). https://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Antiracist-Ibram-Kendi/dp/0525...

>There is a similar system in the US, based on skin color. Is there? It is very easy to find instances of poor black kids that are now multi-millionaires due to sports. Lebron James, for example, grew up without a father figure and in a poor household. He is now a billionaire.

India's constitution was written by Ambedkar. Kocheril Raman Narayanan was president of Independent india; elected within 50 years of its independence. I think US is independent way longer than 50 years.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#267

Post by Skunkleton »

blinkingled wrote: post #71
canistel wrote: post #48

See, you can have discourses on caste, you can deliberate as you will, but endogamy - marrying within your caste - is still the norm across India, even in the states where people are not that finicky about caste. Until this chain is broken, the shadow boxing on the sidelines will continue. Interestingly the Caribbean communities have somehow managed to shed caste, while retaining the Hindu identity.

I fail to understand how marriage is anything but a justifiably personal preference. Jobs are a different story - you can't prefer one race/ethnicity/caste over the other for obvious reasons. Marriage on the other hand is very personal - it would be ridiculous to expect people to marry into other races/castes/ethnicities as the norm - it never happens that way in any part of the world no matter how advanced - people…

> Marriage on the other hand is very personal - it would be ridiculous to expect people to marry into other races/castes/ethnicities as the norm - it never happens that way in any part of the world no matter how advanced - people generally prefer the partnership of people that they share most in common with.

This mentality is the exact point GP is trying to make. If your preference is for people of your own caste/race/etc. then those divisions will be reinforced. I don't think anyone here is saying that you shouldn't marry based on your own preferences. Just that people not considering caste as part of marriage decisions would be a good signal that caste is losing relevance.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#268

Post by ashayh »

fellellor wrote: post #187
lowercasteguy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There are still many temples(Hindu religious places of worship) in India where lower caste dalits are not allowed to enter.

Name one, and I’ll report it to the cops.

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=dalit+beaten+for+entering+temple

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#269

Post by creata »

drieddust wrote: post #232
creata wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't assume motives for downvotes, it's a fruitless endeavor that only makes you look bitter. You were not "merely stating the origins of [the] caste system." You justified it, by stating that "all mature societies need division of labor." Firstly, that is a very vague claim, and secondly, you neglected to explain why on Earth that "division of labor" should be hereditary.

I didn't say division of labour should be hereditary. I said India had division of labour but people were allowed to move up and down as per their skill and abilities. The hard caste boundaries were enforced by British colonial rule. My other comment quotes shloka from Hindu text clearly saying everyone is born lower class unless they earn their place. How is that unfair?

Sorry, I totally misinterpreted your comment before you edited it. I still don't understand a few things though.

> Profession like engineering, arts, temple building, city planning were all done by the 4th class.

What's the use of this "class system" if one class covers such a broad area? Isn't it so broad as to be useless?

> clearly saying everyone is born lower class unless they earn their place.

Was this ever true in practice? It's definitely not true in the present, and I find it hard to believe that parents were ever so enlightened as to compel their children to "earn their place" through such struggle.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#270

Post by Bang2Bay »

known wrote: post #245
puranjay wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know your caste, you're most likely upper caste.

In America there is no system in place today that forces people to remain separate or keeps one CLASS subservient to another. If you were born the son of a street sweeper, but excelled, you would be fully accepted by your peers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility Not so in India. The Caste system freezes everyone in place for their life time. For someone to move from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_cas…

is the change legally prevented? I have confusion on what constitutes movement as well.
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