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Privacy is the most important concept of our time

inre.me

161–170 of 226 posts

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#161

If you think privacy is the major concern of most people then no offence, but you've had a pretty privileged life. I doubt it's even the major concern of most people in Western countries due to unemployment, poverty, debt etc. let alone developing nations which have the real risk of actual famine and so on.

Privacy was a major concern in former socialist countries like East Germany were the Stasi and hundreds-of-thousands of "Unofficial Collaborators" spied on millions of citizens. People were very alert in their everyday lives about who they could talk to about what topics (because talking about the wrong things to the wrong people could easily cost you your carreer or land you in jail). I would hardly call life in the…

Sure, but it was the dictatorship locking people up for wrongthink that was the problem, not the lack of privacy.

I don't think many East Germans would take the GDR back in return for guarantees that views would stay private so long as they were expressed in private...

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perhaps it's because I'm privileged, but I don't really see how this is a problem? does it really matter if someone holds abhorrent beliefs privately if everything they do in public (and at their job) is consistent with their publicly espoused views? If somebody has both expressed abhorrent views and made deceptive statements, why on earth would one assume they could be trusted to only act in accordance with their…

that's not quite an answer to the question I asked. people don't always behave in a way that's consistent with the privately or publicly held beliefs, and I think it would be foolish to expect them to. suppose you have a hiring manager that's secretly a racist, but nevertheless hires a diverse group of talented engineers because that's what's in their job description. doesn't it only become a problem if people find o…

In the real world - and even more so in a super privacy-conscious version of the real world - nobody has perfect information about how the other person acts towards others. Politicians renege on public commitments and racists hire minorities to bully all the time.

Suppose you have a hiring manager that expresses racist views about minority engineers but then tells you not to tell anyone. Why on earth should their plea for secrecy and some nonwhite faces in the office lead you to assume that they're scrupulously fair in their decision making?

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perhaps it's because I'm privileged, but I don't really see how this is a problem? does it really matter if someone holds abhorrent beliefs privately if everything they do in public (and at their job) is consistent with their publicly espoused views? If somebody has both expressed abhorrent views and made deceptive statements, why on earth would one assume they could be trusted to only act in accordance with their…

that's not quite an answer to the question I asked. people don't always behave in a way that's consistent with the privately or publicly held beliefs, and I think it would be foolish to expect them to. suppose you have a hiring manager that's secretly a racist, but nevertheless hires a diverse group of talented engineers because that's what's in their job description. doesn't it only become a problem if people find o…

it becomes a problem the minute there's divergence because lack of integrity undermines trust. of course, the seriousness of the problem correlates with the size of the divergence. and given that, as you rightly note, there is always going to be some degree of divergence, social responses should be informed by the degree of the divergence, and should forgive relatively trivial ones.

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#164
I had some chickens on my lawn the other day. Someone driving by stopped, started video recording me, my family, my neighbors, and the birds with their phone (I assume that's what he was doing, that's what it looked like) for a minute or two, then he drove off. He didn't say a word. He didn't respond when I waved.

By my standards of social behavior that dude is a fucking creep and (years ago) I would have tried to go over and confront him, and get his license plate, and maybe even call the cops on him. I know it's not illegal to photo/film people in public, but (again, by my personal standards of social decency) this guy's behavior is hella creepy.

Of course, the answer is: he's a millennial and (to him) what he's doing is perfectly normal. Everybody is a tactless voyeur now, and all your photons/base belong to us. Anything worth looking at is already getting mobbed by the panopticon.

(My solution is to buy some land in the woods, cover it with surveillance gear and build large, intimidating robots to patrol the fence. But that won't scale.)

The problem is, our whole civilization is that guy: the advertisers, the NSA, the crooks and creeps, all of them are after your data and have a head start.

We can't put the tech/genie back in the bottle (I don't believe we can.) So that leaves us with creating a kinder, gentler dystopian hell.

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#165
I think this a fantastically important topic and good post, but also misses some important things (which i dont know but there are defienitely missing ones) and focuses very much on recent tech-sphere promiment issues .

some points

-privacy is probably most important for most people in their private relationships and social life (instead of the emphasis on these recent issues)

-could be made more comprehensve/extended we have some regulations for privacy in personal relations, e.g. sexting/sex-pics publication

(that could be extended to more activities) (this is not related to the private relationships mentioned one point above)

-there is a difference between privacy for separating life/having different identities and forgiving/importantness-view-reduction of past behaviors (some european countries heavily limit prepetrator-/convicted-personal-info-transmission, mainly on the belief that this aids rehabilitation(reduces reperpetration-rates) but possibly also on the belief that then the crime is paid for/there shouldn't be further punishing for it (incl social one) but they dont approve of crime/dont see crime as a separate legitimate identity)

--it is very interesting that there seem to be no(?)/very limited norms around past-information-transmission/its legitimacy ((eg after 10 years things shouldnt be mentioned) (there are systems that deal with wrong-thought(seen as wrong) behavior like of course personal forgiving, church forgiving of sins etc that are about legitimacy of taking into account(shouldn't be (negatively) taken into account) (maybe this indirectly speaks a bit to the main subpoint indirectly because then it would also get somewhat delitimized to talk about it/continue to frequently talk about it (which could well be seen/meant to affect the talked-about person negatively) but this is then more an indirect effect)

-violence/(counter-)aggression seems to most pronounced in personal relations, e.g. people aggress/retaliate (like for other unwanted behavior) and try to reduce status of orig aggressor, eg just saying theyre bad or associating them with low-status categories (eg theyre ugly or dumb or do something (if it happens often enough probably gets turned into insult thats somewhat divorced from originally maybe somewhat seriously meant relationship-supposation, e.g. son of a whore etc)) (again by just saying that or telling negative gossip etc)

* -privacy is very important for/very important component of self-expression (and identity trying(so latter part of former ofc (so e.g. really)) * (maybe most important part why privacy matters)

-for these more politcal/abstract/not directly personal discussions something you could have specific settings like Chatham-house-rules while still maintaining productivity-oriented rules in other parts (so Chatham-house-rules for a restaurant-meetup or discord, but disturbing discussions in workplace could be brought up to HR etc) (chatham-house-rules instead of more restrictive rules like around medical privacy etc) (this is a bit work in progress)

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#166

I had some chickens on my lawn the other day. Someone driving by stopped, started video recording me, my family, my neighbors, and the birds with their phone (I assume that's what he was doing, that's what it looked like) for a minute or two, then he drove off. He didn't say a word. He didn't respond when I waved. By my standards of social behavior that dude is a fucking creep and (years ago) I would have tried to go…

Or you can approach them in a friendly manner and talk about your Chickens, why are they so fascinated and make a new friend.

My advice is to try to understand that your judgement is probably not aligned to malice of the intruder, instead verify with friendliness and if they’re still “creepy”, by all means proceed with your action plan.

Love each other and our neighbors. Dude probably just wanted to send it to his girlfriend what he found interesting on the way. Sure the means of communication has changed, but back in the day it would be a photo taken on a Kodak disposable camera and majority of the narrative would have been through story telling.

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#167

Not destroying our planet with GHG and rendering it inhospitable for millions of species, including humanity, is more important than a couple generations' data being spied on.

I would even adventure to say that privacy is a human construct that doesn't really matter... why is privacy that important? when did "privacy" start to be of importance to the human been.

As a devil's advocate, if EVERYTHING, absolutely everything was public, and "common knowledge" and accepted (you sleep without clothes, oh god! scandal!) a lot of things would be easier.

Of course the fact that people are judged for their choices is what makes us value privacy... but the right thing would be for them NOT to be judged by those choices.

I understand at the basic level it is an unpopular opinion, but I submit this as a thought process on the same level that Asimov, Heinlein and other SciFi authors proposed to test our basic social assumptions.

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#168

Privacy is dead. Why do we think we have anything close to agency over our self when advertising and — in general — profiteering by trafficking in the private lives of individuals is the force that it is today?

I agree. Most people don't realize what's going on, and of those that do, most of them are profiting by it. The few that see what's happening clearly and don't like it are a tiny minority with (relatively) no money.

To answer your question, I think people have much less agency than we think we do. Our brains run the show, not our minds. It would take so much energy to do something about e.g. surveillance capitalism that the brain settles on a useful illusion (agency) and ignores the data that would require energy expenditure for dubious returns (most people in the panopticon are doing relatively well, eh?)

It's not a very good answer, I know, but I have been convinced that there's no deeper reason. It's caloric cheaper to be a good "coppertop" than to wake up and become "Neo". (Yes, a Matrix reference. I am not ashamed.)

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#169
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that privacy should be trade for less poverty, less unemployment, less debt, etc? Lot of people do not have the luxury to focus on privacy concerns, the same way lot of people do not have the luxury to care or focus on climate issues. Does that make privacy and climate concerns something reserved for "people with privileged life"? It seems quite clear to me that's not the case. They are both a concern…

Well how about we don't try to compare pears with apples. Privacy and poverty are both pretty important in their own way, let's not make clickbaity claims just for the sake of it.

[deleted]

Re: Privacy is the most important concept of our time

#170

I wanted to like this essay, because I also worry about the loss of privacy today, but the goofy paragraph about borders turned me off. To believe that borders are conducive to peace sounds like a bad case of internet-brain.

I'm going to ask you to defend this claim. I consider myself a reasonably astute leftist student of history, but I don't think history is on your side. To be sure, borders are not a guarantor of peace, but you can't really argue with the results of Westphalia.
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