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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#251

Post by srtjstjsj »

dzhVAaT8A3Sg wrote: post #113
throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Some of what you are saying is true but I had a good experience with Indians maybe because I knew how to react to it. But Indians are extremely diverse. My wife is Brahmin, and I am white, and I've been around Brahmins as a result. I have found Brahmins who come to the US often are not particularly religious but still practice some of old customs. They complain about a lot of Brahmin hate in India and like escaping f…

A religion is simply a culture based on a non-rational foundation.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#252

Post by sanmon3186 »

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Born in a remote Indian village, studied in towns, worked for a decade in the US and now living in a tier-1 Indian city for the last 6-7 years. Never in my life I observed any kind of bias against christians or muslims at workplace.

Coming to the cast issues, there was a post here last week on the same topic. I extended the discussion to a WhatsApp group of 70+ colleagues/friends who come from different backgrounds. I wanted to validate if I am the odd one, who has almost never observed cast based issues either. After two days of long discussion, we came to a conclusion that we tend to show more affinity to the people who speak our native language or/and come from same regional roots, than our cast and religion.

Not denying that that the later doesn't exist at all, I feel this whole topic is too exaggerated.

Disclaimer: My experience is limited to 20 years of while collar profession (only).

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#253

Post by colanderman »

raxxorrax wrote: post #236
imheretolearn wrote: post #193

I am an Indian and I genuinely don't know exactly where I stand in the cast hierarchy. In India it was pretty common for people to ask me my caste. However, what struck me the most was, that during my Master's in the US, other Indians who I was attending university with, would ask me the same question. When I would tell them that I genuinely don't know the answer, they would mock and imperceptibly laugh at me. I felt…

It seems to be a common occurrence in cultures everywhere that a diaspora emphasizes cultural values of the country of origin. I think there are different motivations behind it, but from experience it seems to be a fact. Only happens if there is a critical amount of people that share these roots though, otherwise they seem to drop their culture almost completely. In my country it is pretty common for Turks and Russia…

I suspect that individuals with strong cultural values self-select to create and lead such communities. Others who maybe do not identify so strongly with the same values, but who are in need of community, crystallize around these leaders and adapt/reflect their cultural conviction in order to reinforce a sense of belonging.

At least, this is my experience with non-cultural interest groups.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#254

Post by klmadfejno »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #175
klmadfejno wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non indian, that sounds like an incredibly weak form of plausible deniability covering one's ass.

That's reasonable if you've only ever come across castes in this context. When I think of American buses, I think of Rosa Parks and racism, because that's the only context I have - but that doesn't make that the only relevant characteristic of them. We here in India hear the "caste as abhorrent discrimination" side from a very early age (and that's certainly important), but it's taken me years of experience to learn…

To be honest, no, that just sounds like you're doubling down on preserving harmful social structures because it benefits your in group. White supremacist groups in the US also focus on the positives and shared culture of white America. Hating blacks isn't the core belief, it's just a side effect of wanting everyone to know that whites are the best.

I don't mean to say it's hateful to say you want social castes out on the table for identifying who you share connections with, but that obviously comes with the fact that you identify those who don't share that connection. It's a justification for extending social problems.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#255

Post by jfengel »

known wrote: post #245
puranjay wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know your caste, you're most likely upper caste.

In America there is no system in place today that forces people to remain separate or keeps one CLASS subservient to another. If you were born the son of a street sweeper, but excelled, you would be fully accepted by your peers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility Not so in India. The Caste system freezes everyone in place for their life time. For someone to move from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_cas…

There is a similar system in the US, based on skin color. The article's title references the book How To Be An Antiracist. It's very much on people's minds today, and the article was written to see what lessons the US can learn from the situation in India (including Indians in the US, where caste-ism remains a problem).

https://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Antiracist-Ibram-Kendi/dp/0525...

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#256

Post by klmadfejno »

paloaltokid wrote: post #164
klmadfejno wrote: post #70

The dialogue here seems foreign to me. Playing a coy game where you realize someone is trying to infer something about you so you dodge the question. It's weird to imagine that people engage in a cultural dance where you need certainty of arbitrary facts before you decide to act like a dick (oversimplified). But it's really weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff. Trying to hide the…

> The dialogue here seems foreign to me. Playing a coy game where you realize someone is trying to infer something about you so you dodge the question. It's weird to imagine that people engage in a cultural dance where you need certainty of arbitrary facts before you decide to act like a dick (oversimplified). Okay but where are you really from?

I'm not sure what you mean to imply here. If you're implying you think I'm Indian and pretending I'm not, well I'm not Indian and I don't follow why you would think that.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#257

Post by klmadfejno »

viraptor wrote: post #96
klmadfejno wrote: post #70

The dialogue here seems foreign to me. Playing a coy game where you realize someone is trying to infer something about you so you dodge the question. It's weird to imagine that people engage in a cultural dance where you need certainty of arbitrary facts before you decide to act like a dick (oversimplified). But it's really weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff. Trying to hide the…

> weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff It takes energy. It brings out aggressive opposition. It may impact people's lives. There needs to be a bigger shift and it can get messy. You can declare yourself free of the stupid discrimination, but then you have to be prepared to be even more publicly discussed and face backlash in private. Most people want to live their lives, not becom…

> Also if you say "system X is bad" it's close to certain you're not the person who is at the top of system X. By not identifying yourself, you identify yourself as close to the bottom.

I don't disagree, but it seems like that would happen if you just dodged the questions like the interviewee too. I guess it just sounds to me like getting in the front of the issue would be an effective strategy because a lot of the social stigma around it means the discrimination is supposed to be subtle and unacknowledged.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#258

Post by oefnak »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #244
ertian wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely true that outright dismissing all high-caste Indians is no better than doing the same for low-caste or any other race of people. I have to say, though, if I saw an org chart with a disproportionate number of Indians (relative to nearby & similar companies, or other parts of the same company) I would take that as a warning sign. As you say, in my experience, less political and more open-minded Indian t…

It turns out that when a woman sees an org chart with almost no women, or a Black person sees an org chart with almost no Black people, they have similar concerns. The language issue is slightly separate factor, of course. Still, insisting that English be the language of business is a pretty huge privilege in favor of native speakers, which can be detrimental to the business when people are forced to communicate in t…

My entire organisation speaks English because of one person who does not speak our native tongue. Or at least when he is in the office, and in all our online communication/documentation.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#259

Post by UncleOxidant »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #250
UncleOxidant wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get nervous when I see too many of one ethnic group in a reporting structure in a large tech company - no matter what the ethnic group is. It's a red flag if a manager is primarily hiring people from his/her ethic group. And yes, if you end up being the only white person in the group you definitely can end up being the odd person out (and I wouldn't exempt Chinese from this as you have). It's uncomfortable, but you…

Do you get nervous when it's too many caucasians too?

Yes. "no matter what the ethnic group is"

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#260

Post by whimsicalism »

drieddust wrote: post #208
whimsicalism wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean there are two effects: 1. Ongoing discrimination 2. Different starting points + law of large numbers. If you start one racial group off in a country with property and let them acquire wealth for a few hundred years, then free another racial group from slavery with absolutely nothing - even after a long while those wealth differences will persist.

I agree completely. The Question is what is being done to erase that difference? IMHO trying to find cultural fit is a form of ongoing discrimination[1] and it strengthens the effect of different starting points[2]. India is countering [2] by enforcing a 50% quota in education, Jobs, and politics. AFAIK West on the other hand is wishing it to vanish without doing anything concrete. India is taking right steps in the…

It's odd - often when I talk with international people, they seem to be under the impression that affirmative action doesn't exist outside of their own country.

I was recently talking with someone in China who claimed that the Uighurs could not be oppressed because they are given advantages in hiring/education, and that America would never do the same for black people.

Suffice to say, the US does engage in extensive aff action in education and hiring (although neither are directly legally mandated).

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