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Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

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Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#261

Post by underwater »

waheoo wrote: post #21
doctor_eval wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because there are 10x more aboriginal people in prison, that's not racist policing, that's just natural, is that what you're saying? “There is a sadly high level of Indigenous incarceration, I think it’s about 30% compared to 3% of the population,” Mitchell said, while interviewing the prime minister on Thursday. “But black deaths in custody, I mean, that’s, that’s a furphy, isn’t it? I mean, since the royal c…

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all whi…

Please don't pretend that Australia is free of racism. There are plenty of backwards and indefensible views that are socially acceptable and given plenty of air time in mainstream media: portrayal of Aboriginals as a drain on society, narratives about "African gangs" and the "cashed up Chinese buying properties". These are not niche opinions, they're mainstream.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#262

Post by DanBC »

Udik wrote: post #186
justinclift wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Er... that sounds incredibly racist?

It's a fact. How can a fact be racist?

People are saying the system is racist.

Surely that means that information generated by the system is also going to be influenced by that racism?

If we over-police, over-charge, over-prosecute, and over-convict one group of people then the system will generate "facts" that tell us this group of people commit more crime. Obviously we don't know if that group of people do commit more crime because we're relying on broken data.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#263

Post by Udik »

underwater wrote: post #259
Udik wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facts taken out of context can obviously be racist. A fact is a statement about reality. It can induce racism, but cannot be racist in itself. Facts are scientific, and science is not political. > More crime than who? Of non-Aboriginal people. > Or, More crime than all other groups with the same economic opportunities? Maybe or maybe not. That is beside the point. If you compare incarceration rates of Aboriginal an…

Statistics can absolutely be both racist and inaccurate, because you can choose which numbers to highlight, or how to slice and dice your data. Simpson's Paradox is a perfect example of how you can bucket data to show a trend that is the opposite of reality.

A statistic is a calculation. Are you saying that the result of a calculation can be racist?

It can be produced with a racist intent, or it can be interpreted as such. You can talk of the result of the calculation in a racist way, or derive racist conclusions from it. But per se, it cannot be racist. And you cannot decide to ignore the result of a calculation because you don't agree with the discussion or the questions it generates.

EDIT (rate limited): as for your other answer "By saying "Aboriginal people just commit more crime" you are declaring that race is a relevant factor..." you are confusing correlation with causation. Or you are assuming that I might be confusing them.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#264

Post by doctor_eval »

apexalpha wrote: post #248
doctor_eval wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a tragic injustice that only happens to aboriginal people. If only we could do something . Edited to respond to your edits: > Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Unqualified statements asserting that a specific racial group "just commit more crime" is pretty much an applied definition of the word "racist". Isolated statistics about aboriginal behaviour used to buttress your assertion th…

One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. For what it's worth you are doing the EXACT same thing the post in this article is about: you are pushing a very American view on racism. First of all, racism is absolutely not White -> Black. Or White -> Aboriginal. If you think that I'd assu…

I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term.

I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand.

Of course it matters what white people think about racism. But it doesn’t hurt to get the opinion of those who are actually harmed by it, does it? I mean I have never had the misfortune of experiencing racism first hand, so if I say something that an aboriginal person considers racist, that’s something I would want to take very seriously.

I never said “we” aren’t qualified to say what is racist. What I’m not so confident about, when specifically talking about aboriginal people, is claiming that my statements are not racist.

Overt racism is pretty easy to spot, but just because I try to be considerate doesn’t mean that the things I say in good faith can’t nevertheless be racist.

Keeping an open mind and listening to how others feel is more important than my biased opinion.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#265

Post by funcDropShadow »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #253
justinclift wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean it sometimes is Trying to think of an example of it being a problem, but am drawing a blank. Any ideas?

A common example would be profiting from cultural developments or ideas from cultures that had been historically looked down upon or disadvantaged by your own, particularly when doing so in a disrespectful manner. For example – a white European artist designing fabrics and prints with traditionally African patterns, without acknowledging the contribution or involving members of that community, would sit uneasily with…

> A common example would be profiting from cultural developments or ideas from cultures that had been historically looked down upon or disadvantaged by your own, particularly when doing so in a disrespectful manner.

I have two problems with your constraint "from cultures that had been historically looked down upon". How far back do we have to look? This might seem obvious between Europe and African countries. But if you look far enough you will find African invaders (Hannibal of Carthago) passing the Alps. I am convinced if you look far enough you will find instances where every culture frowned upon another. So, this criteria is open for interpretation. What is serious enough? How war back do we look? Therefor your constraint "from cultures that had been historically looked down upon" is far from trivial to apply.

Secondly, does that mean that I am responsible for the wrong doing of my ancestors? Does the question whether something is morally right if I do it depend on the behavior my ancestors? How far back do we go? Should we send children to prison for the crimes of their parents? Obviously, I am playing devil's advocate, here. But I am strongly against inconsistent standards.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#266

Post by dafoex »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #255
coldtea wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that far I'd say. While the British have their nazis and everything in moderation, at least they're not generally 24/7 preoccupied with race. (They are however preoccupied with class a lot).

at least they're not generally 24/7 preoccupied with race 1. Not true of Americans, and 2. Probably a newsflash to all the British people who are subject to discrimination on the basis of race. British views and issues around race are different from American ones. The article has value, because this point is important and often missed – even if it's not new. But too many people in the UK use this idea as a "harrumph…

Good thing this article came along so we can point at actual race related problems British people face, but not people from the states.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#267

Post by dafoex »

luckylion wrote: post #228
jkingsbery wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans seem to have this weird view Some Americans, anyway. Growing up in the US, I was always taught the US was "the great melting pot." But I agree, it doesn't seem like it lately.

The melting pot metaphor was replaced by a salad bowl, wasn't it? Assimilation (which is the melting pot) is now considered a crime against humanity and the whole "separate but equal" is the new hotness.

And you can't argue with salad because its healthy, and we are too fat, and we aught to be trying to live longer lives even though there's no incentive for most of us to prolong our misery.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#268

Post by marcus_holmes »

jtbayly wrote: post #217
marcus_holmes wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a straw man argument. I know the USA is a huge, diverse country with different problems in different areas. But it is a single country. And that single country is having a problem with police brutality against black people. That doesn't mean all cops are bastards. It means some cops are racist bastards. And the whole of your gigantic country needs to accept that and do something about it.

No it’s not a straw man. It’s literally the specific complaint I was initially responding to in GP.

Yes, but it's a straw man argument.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#269

Post by funcDropShadow »

akvadrako wrote: post #243
romanoderoma wrote: post #218

> but that doesn't mean we don't have racism Absolutely right! We do have racism. But "systemic racism" is on a whole another level in US. It's in the system means "you can be shot and killed just because you are of some ethnicity" by those that sworn to protect and serve. I'm scared only thinking about it. I would live in constant fear. Plus, it is true that Europe society is not racism free, it is also true that US…

> But "systemic racism" is on a whole another level in US. You have a very skewed view of race relations in the US. Racist police is a popular media narrative, but it's not backed up by evidence. Cops are more likely to kill a white fugitive then a black one; black cops are just as likely to kill as white cops; many victims of police violence are white; etc...

But, they are way more likely to kill at all in the US. And that is a very large problem, not only of the police, but also of a society that believes everyone should carry a gun to be able to fight against "the state".

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#270

Post by nobody9999 »

ChrisRR wrote: post #143
drumhead wrote: post #62

Adele, the singer, was photographed at the Nottinghill Carnival (a massive Carribean street festival over the August bank holiday in London) with her hair in Bantu Knots and wearing a bikini top in the colours of the Jamaican flag. As soon as it was on twitter the you started getting tweets from Black Americans about cultural appropriation, but this was met in turn by fierce opposition from African and Carribean post…

Exactly, Americans seem to have this weird view that no-one's culture should mix. I think in the UK the view of most people is that mixing cultures is fine as long as it's respectful I grew up in a multicultural town in the UK (also home to a lot of racism unfortunately) but we had a yearly (carribean I think) carnival with music and floats and costumes and food. People would turn out in the thousands and it didn't m…

>Exactly, Americans seem to have this weird view that no-one's culture should mix.

Unless you replace "Americans" with "a small group of obnoxious loudmouths from the US on social media" in your statement, you don't reflect reality.

I heartily encourage you (once it's safe to do so) to come and visit New York City.

Have some pizza at a place run by Greeks.

Have a delicious bagel (I recommend an everything bagel with brie and tomatoes, yum!) at a bagelry[0] owned and run by a Thai family.

Have some ropa vieja with shrimp fried rice at one of many Chinese/Latin restaurants.

And a place near me has wonderful Callaloo and delicious curry goat.

And there are at least half a dozen places near me where I can get a tasty mofongo[1].

Or one of many Caribbean, Malaysian, Korean, Japanese, Brazilian, African and European restaurants, bars, music venues, festivals and all manner of other culture from six continents.

I was really sad when the French bakery near me closed. The croissant were nearly as good as the ones I had in Paris.

And that's just the food. Cultures, languages and customs mix freely here. While there certainly are distinct cultures, they are welcomed and often incorporated into the broader culture.

I think that you'd find that to be true in most urban areas (and many suburban ones).

That said, there are many places in the US which are not culturally or ethnically diverse at all.

Which isn't surprising. The US is big. It has ~75% of the population of the EU in an area more than twice the size of the EU.

Consider how homogeneous some areas of the EU are. Why is that? Is it because they're all bigots and 'limeys' don't want 'frogs' around, etc?

[0] https://www.thrillist.com/venue/eat/new-york/restaurants/abs...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mofongo

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