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Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

persuasion.community

221–230 of 394 posts

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#221
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think trying to argue against racism while lumping an entire country of tens of millions of people together is productive.

TFA is talking about racism as if it can be seen through the lens of how an entire nation feels about and handles racism, so that seems like a reasonable way of talking about it in this thread.

The article is about contexts for racism differing between countries. It’s not about saying “x country is super racist.”

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cultural appropriation doesnt seem to be a problem anywhere else but the USA. It is not a problem anywhere, actually. Some people just want to make it into one.

Yeah “cultural appropriation” criticism is often cultural purism. In some cases the way “appropriated” culture is represented look embarrassing to those native in said culture, like people are wearing ethnic clothing without the trousers that go with it, or cooking food not in the way it should be done and ending up with horrible slurry, but that’s rare in recent years.

This. If some idiot wants to put chorizo on their paella and eat the result, valencians will not really be offended, they will be slightly amused, if anything. Next thing, americans will want to forbid any kind of "fusion" cooking.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#223
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an attempt to lighten the mood a little, I would just like to relate a quick story about a restaurant I saw while visiting Liverpool many years ago. It was called, "Jamaican me Hungry". :)

And... how was the food?

It was closed, damnit!

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#224

>I have privilege as a White person because I can do all of these things without thinking twice about it … I can go jogging (#AmaudArbery). I can relax in the comfort of my own home (#BothemSean and #AtatianaJefferson). I can ask for help after being in a car crash (#Jonathan Ferrell and #RenishaMcBride). I can have a cellphone (#StephonClark). I can leave a party to get to safety (#JordanEdwards). I can play loud mu…

As a foreigner, I am perplexed too. This seems to me a class problem rather than a race problem, and ignoring the white victims and framing it as a race problem only misdirects from the actual issue. The problem is that the rich rule the US and the poor are left to feed off the scraps, and pitting poor whites against poor blacks only benefits the elite that wants everyone to be too busy fighting each other to notice…

There's a theory that this focus on identity politics is encouraged by elites, as a way of distracting people from class politics. I'm not convinced it's true, in that it's a deliberate strategy, but i imagine they're pretty pleased that it's happening.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a British person with Caribbean family background, I found the reaction to this from the internet so strange. In Britain it's normal that the different cultures here mix. Shops selling Baltic bread, next to shops selling jerk chicken, across the road from a traditional English pub. People of all colours and backgrounds frequenting all of them. From an outside perspective, people in the USA seem very pre-occupied w…

The issue is people being offended on behalf of others (which is itself not a bad thing: we should be conscious of where we might be using culturally significant signals inappropriately, or otherwise causing offence) but being hyper-sensitive and seeing offence where it doesn't really exist in the groups that they think they are standing up for. > pre-occupied with continuing a culture of segregation I think were "cu…

> Finding the right balance point can be difficult. The dividing lines between cultural appreciation, cultural mixing, cultural appropriation, and cultural subjugation, while sometimes obvious & clear are often much more subjective

In my opinion, this hypersensitivity was turned into a weapon to shame people who have no ill-will. Compounded with Twitter bandwagoning, it’s downright dangerous, and now people are self-censoring anything to avoid censure

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#226

The problem exists elsewhere too, because of the extremely widespread proliferation of American media - I see the Polish media taking american talking points about race, sexuality, religion, and just transplanting them wholesale into the Polish frame of reference as if they were equally important here - more often than not, they simply aren't. While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism like in…

> While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism like in the US Are you sure about that? I haven't spent much time in Poland, but I've spent quite a bit of time in the baltic states and systemic racism absolutely is a problem there. It's just (mostly) against Jews and Roma rather than black people. I fully expect this is the case in Poland too. EDIT: yes,as I thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik…

> In a way, it's even worse: because America sets the tone of discourse and frames racism as white vs black,

This. In Denmark the biggest minority is the Muslim minority, but we have still had big Black Lives Matter demonstrations with only a slight Middle Eastern twist.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#227
post #7

I never even heard of anyone being as racist as americans are when trying not to be.

>I never even heard of anyone being as racist as americans are when trying not to be.

As I'm an American, feel free to reject my comment out of hand.

That said, yes there's plenty of racism in the US.

Sure, it's fun to sneer at Americans and feel superior. Knock yourself out.

However, you seem ignorant of reality and of history.

In many cases the issue isn't that most Americans are actively thinking about how inferior the minorities are.

It's much more about the racist structures built into American society over the past 400 years. We've been slowly (and much too slowly, to my mind) coming to grips with these issues.

In doing so, we've shed an enormous amount of blood. Before our civil war, ~13% of our population was enslaved[0].

During that war, 2% of the population were soldiers killed on the battlefield. And the number of civilians killed is unknown, but likely substantial. Imagine if wherever you live, 3% of the population were to be killed, vast swaths of your cities, towns, villages, farms and ports destroyed[2].

After the war, once the armies of the "victorious" side left the American south, tens of thousands of former slaves were, murdered, beaten, tortured or imprisoned.

Discriminatory laws were enacted and enforced[1] throughout the former Confederacy[5], and was continued in the West and Southwest[3][4], not just against the former slaves, but against those of Mexican, Native American and Asian descent as well.

Even in the North (with most of the population and nearly half the area) where slavery was illegal before the war, discriminatory practices against free blacks as well as former slaves was common.

But don't forget that Catholics (Irish, Italians, etc.) and Jews were often discriminated against too. Certainly not as harshly as people of color, but that existed, and still exists today.

For decades, legal discrimination persisted. It was more than 80 years after our civil war before we started to dismantle the governmental systems that both implicitly and explicitly discriminated against nearly 15% of our population.

And over that time, all across the country many thousands were killed and abused with impunity.

That change came only because of the bravery and determination of the blacks in the US. We would berate them, beat them and kill them for being 'uppity', but they never stopped demanding their right to be full American citizens.

And thanks to them, things have changed a great deal here in the US. We still have issues of discrimination in housing, employment, over-policing and a raft of other areas.

But even in my lifetime (I'm over 50), I've seen significant positive change. It's not nearly enough, nor is that change coming quickly enough.

But it is happening.

These days, complacency and inertia are the biggest obstacles to positive change. Many people just don't think about it, or if they do, are content with knowing that they don't discriminate.

Many have married/cohabitate with those of a different ethnic background. Many have children who do so. This varies a great deal depending on where (remember, the US is big) people live. In many places, there aren't many people of color.

Diversity tends to be more within and sprawling around urban centers and many descendants of former slaves live in the south as well.

That's not to say there aren't a whole bunch of dyed-in-the-wool racists and white supremacists here in the US. There are.

Not so long ago, the militant racists were roundly criticized and ostracized. So much so that most of them wouldn't express their bigotry unless they knew they were among those who shared their hateful ideas.

Now those folks are emboldened. Their numbers haven't really increased, it's just that they've attached themselves to other reactionaries who prefer the economic unfairness of our society.

The difference these days is that factions of certain political groups want to use bigotry as a political tool.

Yeah, we've got problems here in the US. But you don't repair 250 years of slavery and a 100 years of legalized discrimination overnight. And you don't do it in 70 years either.

This is a bleeding gash on American society that's slowly healing.

I hope that I "will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."[6]

You may recognize those words, but read the whole speech. It's almost as much a demand for economic fairness as it is one for an end to discrimination. Which, given the increased inequality we've been seeing, should give all of us some food for thought.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_Census

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/sep/13/how-the-south-...

[4] https://www.c-span.org/video/?471923-1/how-south-won-civil-w...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

[6] https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/i-h...

Edit: Fixed link references and subject/verb agreement.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, Americans seem to have this weird view that no-one's culture should mix. I think in the UK the view of most people is that mixing cultures is fine as long as it's respectful I grew up in a multicultural town in the UK (also home to a lot of racism unfortunately) but we had a yearly (carribean I think) carnival with music and floats and costumes and food. People would turn out in the thousands and it didn't m…

> Americans seem to have this weird view Some Americans, anyway. Growing up in the US, I was always taught the US was "the great melting pot." But I agree, it doesn't seem like it lately.

The melting pot metaphor was replaced by a salad bowl, wasn't it? Assimilation (which is the melting pot) is now considered a crime against humanity and the whole "separate but equal" is the new hotness.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#229

> All the individuals listed are American, but most of the people who have shared this on my timeline are British. In trying to express their solidarity with black Britons Aren't they trying to express their solidarity with black Americans? Just because it's happening outside of your country of residence, doesn't mean your compassion and empathy ends at the border.

While solidarity is a good thing what happens is that due to the (multiplying) effect of social media it overrides and dominates the local debate. The issues that are suddenly pushed to the front are not the issues we need to be dealing with over here in order to do something about racism or to improve our society. For example here in the Netherlands neighbourhoods are built in a way to mix people of all social stand…

Social media is 99% noise anyway, it's not really the place for considered debate. Given that these platforms are globally connected and not local, it's not surprising that emotional international issues dominate over local issues.
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