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Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

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Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#151

Post by bruce511 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #4

This is sort of a no-brainer. I'm pitched by recruiters about once a week, and they're all for far away positions - typically SF area, but other areas too. I can't sell my house any time soon - the market just isn't moving - so I'm somewhat held hostage by geography. This doesn't mean that I can't travel onsite and visit your office regularly, nor does it mean skype and phone don't work out here in the sticks :) Tele…

>> What I don't get is why more companies aren't structuring themselves to take advantage of remote workers.

Lots of companies _are_ structuring to take advantage or remote workers. It's called outsourcing. After all, why pay high rates for a remote-US worker when you can pay low-rates for a remote Chinese or Indian worker.

Sure, you're smart, and bright, and a hard worker, but there are a billion Indians, and more Chinese - I'm sure we can find _someone_ smart and keen AND cheap...

Telecomputing and outsourcing are the same thing. If you promote one, then you promote the other.

What workers don't realize is that there is a massive advantage in going to the office. It's the only thing separating you from that other guy. Take that advantage away at your own peril, but don't come crying to me later when your job has moved 10 000 miles away.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#152

Post by bruce511 »

spoiledtechie wrote: post #82

I know im a bit late to the game. I have been looking for a telecommuting job for the past 6 months with no such luck. I am a solid programmer and I get the job done. I hobby code at home and have an awesome work ethic. I have several years experience and have been everything for GIS software to coding directly on the GPU. I have worked on all three types of mobile devices for my current job, and have a pretty intens…

Not to pick on you, but let me ask this question;

Since you want to be a remote worker, what do you bring to the table that a remote worker in say Mexico doesn't? Or India? Or China? 'Cause sure as hell they'd be a lot cheaper...

And while quantity doesn't equal quality, I'm certainly not so egotistic as to suppose there isn't a single Indian smart enough and keen enough to do whatever I can do for a fraction of the cost.

So why doesn't my boss hire him? Cause I'm in the office when something needs to get done. Because I'm the one who has a relationship with the customers. Because I make the people around me more productive as I pass on my knowledge. Oh, and perhaps because I am the boss.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#153

Post by jacques_chester »

bruce511 wrote: post #150
jacques_chester wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone starts becoming remote, then what's the point of having an office? If enough companies come to the same conclusion, what's the point in owning a building (from the eyes of a real estate guy). And ultimately, what's the point of having big office parks and so on and on. That's a lot of land and lot of capital at stake if this ever actually took off. It'll be put to other uses. That's how capitalism works…

yes. And more to the point what happened to the people who used to _work_ in them? 'Cause those jobs are now being done outside the US by people prepared to work for far less. If decentralizing is an option then the US border certainly isn't a barrier. Understand that a telecomuting job is the easiest job to offshore. At the end of the day if you never come in to the office you might as well be living in India. Cause…

If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x.

In fact, a telecommuter is cheaper than onsite -- much lower overheads. Employees in the office mean renting office space, getting insurance, paying for utilities ... overhead which can add up to a lot of money quite quickly. If they're at home you can pay them more and still come out ahead.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#155

Post by bruce511 »

jacques_chester wrote: post #153
bruce511 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. And more to the point what happened to the people who used to _work_ in them? 'Cause those jobs are now being done outside the US by people prepared to work for far less. If decentralizing is an option then the US border certainly isn't a barrier. Understand that a telecomuting job is the easiest job to offshore. At the end of the day if you never come in to the office you might as well be living in India. Cause…

If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x. In fact, a telecommuter is cheaper than onsite -- much lower overheads. Employees in the office mean renting office space, getting insurance, paying for utilities ... overhead which can add up to a lot of money quite qui…

"If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x."

I disagree. Many companies wouldn't outsource because the shift from having workers-in-house to workers-remote is a big one.

I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here, but there are enormous benefits (perceived or real) to the employer for having people in the office.

The point I'm making is that when a worker presents such a terrific argument for tele-computing, they're also presenting a terrific argument for out-sourcing.

Now personally I'm not a big fan of tele-commuting. We've had some remote workers in the past, and it didn't work out. Communication is the key of course, but at the end of the day, for better or worse, it simply didn't work out. Now we operate far more like a flexitime system, people come in every day, but there's a lot of flexibility with regard to hours.

But my root point here is that the same arguments for and against telecommuting are the same arguments for and against outsourcing. The one begets the other. Outsourcing is just telecommuting with "cheaper" added.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#156

Post by danssig »

bruce511 wrote: post #151
mgkimsal wrote: post #4

This is sort of a no-brainer. I'm pitched by recruiters about once a week, and they're all for far away positions - typically SF area, but other areas too. I can't sell my house any time soon - the market just isn't moving - so I'm somewhat held hostage by geography. This doesn't mean that I can't travel onsite and visit your office regularly, nor does it mean skype and phone don't work out here in the sticks :) Tele…

>> What I don't get is why more companies aren't structuring themselves to take advantage of remote workers. Lots of companies _are_ structuring to take advantage or remote workers. It's called outsourcing. After all, why pay high rates for a remote-US worker when you can pay low-rates for a remote Chinese or Indian worker. Sure, you're smart, and bright, and a hard worker, but there are a billion Indians, and more C…

This is a good argument to bring up but I think it will have the opposite effect.

Right now if you look at e.g. India, there are lots of outsourcing companies but workers don't stay long at these places. They get in, get experience and then move on somewhere they can make money. Usually somewhere in the west.

If telecommuting were to take hold, yes that would mean I would be competing with people from e.g. India. But guess what: I already am. The biggest difference would be that people from India wouldn't have to move to the west for years, build up their income and then move back. They could stay in India if they wanted.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#157

Post by JonWood »

udp wrote: post #76
edw519 wrote: post #41

In the past 4 hours I have exchanged ones and zeros with people and computers in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Arizona, California, Germany, Singapore, and India. And got 3 "office days" worth of work done. And I haven't even brushed my teeth yet. :-) You know what telecommuters say, "Once you've deployed a killer app in your pajamas, you can never go back."

Don't you find it gets a bit lonely after a while? I've been working as a full-time programmer from home for about a year and a half now, and it's beginning to get a bit weird. Aside from not having physical coworkers, I don't leave work, go home and do something else, because work is always all around me. There's this never-ending pattern of 9-5 quickly becoming 2 PM - 8 AM, until I finally pull an all nighter and i…

I've been working from home for the last 9 months, and my experience has been that you have to be disciplined about working hours.

Initially my sleep cycle (and therefore working hours) shifted by a couple of hours, so I'd get out of bed about 11am, and start work somewhere around 12, which effectively meant I had an hour before I stopped for lunch at 1, and then ended up working until 9 in the evening.

If I were single I could probably be quite happy with that, but it meant I only really got a couple of hours with my wife before she went to bed. That alone gave me the motivation to get back into the habit of starting work at 9, and finishing between 5 and 7.

I'll also second the comment by the person who said that it helps to have something planned for the evening, if only to force you into stopping work by that time.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#158

Post by danssig »

bruce511 wrote: post #150
jacques_chester wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone starts becoming remote, then what's the point of having an office? If enough companies come to the same conclusion, what's the point in owning a building (from the eyes of a real estate guy). And ultimately, what's the point of having big office parks and so on and on. That's a lot of land and lot of capital at stake if this ever actually took off. It'll be put to other uses. That's how capitalism works…

yes. And more to the point what happened to the people who used to _work_ in them? 'Cause those jobs are now being done outside the US by people prepared to work for far less. If decentralizing is an option then the US border certainly isn't a barrier. Understand that a telecomuting job is the easiest job to offshore. At the end of the day if you never come in to the office you might as well be living in India. Cause…

>Oh wait, there's some super-keen, super bright chap in India who'll do your work for a tenth of the price?

Except he wont. If he's as good as you are his telecommuting rates will be close to what yours are. Think about it.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#159

Post by danssig »

bruce511 wrote: post #155
jacques_chester wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x. In fact, a telecommuter is cheaper than onsite -- much lower overheads. Employees in the office mean renting office space, getting insurance, paying for utilities ... overhead which can add up to a lot of money quite qui…

"If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x." I disagree. Many companies wouldn't outsource because the shift from having workers-in-house to workers-remote is a big one. I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here, but there are enormous ben…

>I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here

No you can't. If you could more companies would be doing it. You get what you pay for. When you get cheap outsourced labor in India you're getting people with no experience and insanely high turn over rate. If you want people from India with more experience you'll find them out west somewhere making a better salary.

The market rate is the market rate. If you suddenly switched all programmers to being remote then the guys in India would initially be getting offered so many jobs that they'd have to push their prices up in response.

You're making the classic mistake of assuming cost = what it costs me + some profit %. It doesn't, it's about perceived value and nothing else.

Re: Want to attract top tech talent? Offer telecommuting

#160

Post by mgkimsal »

diegob wrote: post #133
mgkimsal wrote: post #4

This is sort of a no-brainer. I'm pitched by recruiters about once a week, and they're all for far away positions - typically SF area, but other areas too. I can't sell my house any time soon - the market just isn't moving - so I'm somewhat held hostage by geography. This doesn't mean that I can't travel onsite and visit your office regularly, nor does it mean skype and phone don't work out here in the sticks :) Tele…

what's an example of one of those "strong procedures" ?

Evaluating communication tools (IRC, bug tracking tools, etc) and encouraging (requiring?) use of them.
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