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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#131

Post by dragonwriter »

lowercasteguy wrote: post #116
throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

> So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved.

So caste discrimination, while it's not a simple as, say, preferring Christians or opposing Muslims, is inherently religious discrimination?

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#132

Post by throwawaysea »

kingkawn wrote: post #64
la6471 wrote: post #40

This interview seems one sided though. I know that for last two decades Brahmins and other so called upper caste Indians have been protesting India’s quota system which is basically affirmative action whereby certain percentages of college seats and job vacancies are reserved only for people who do not belong to the upper castes. So there have been numerous occasions where meritorious but poor upper caste youths did…

There are not two sides to this. The lower castes have been violently discriminated against for millenia and need protection to have any hope of not being viciously held in their place by the Brahmin hegemony.

No they haven’t been violently discriminated against for millennia. This is a common colonialist trope spread about India. Your language alone, using Western words like “caste” to describe a system that doesn’t fit that word, is influencing your perception. Caste based discrimination (and all the negative issues that come with it) is very recent, and was nudged into existence by British imperialism, which relied on divide and conquer to control large populations in countries they ruled. Historically Indian separation of these different groups was more like specialization of economic/cultural roles, and did not have the modern sheen of disrespect/classism/discrimination. Please don’t spread ignorant falsehoods like this.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#133

Post by starpilot »

troyjfarrell wrote: post #126
throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

My experience (anecdote) is the opposite. I worked for an Indian manager in a game studio. I don't know what caste, except that he wasn't Christian or Muslim, probably because he didn't think it worth mentioning. He hired based on demonstrated skill, so we had a diverse group of coworkers. He actively encouraged the group to eat together, arranging meals out with careful consideration for the group's preferences. He…

Parent comment is about multiple indians in a reporting group, not just one. This can greatly affect the group dynamic.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#134

Post by lowercasteguy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #131
lowercasteguy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

> So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved. So caste discrimination, while it's not a simple as, say, preferring Christians or opposing Muslims, is inherently religious discrimination?

Exactly. There are still many temples(Hindu religious places of worship) in India where lower caste dalits are not allowed to enter.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#135

Post by dilippkumar »

gen220 wrote: post #119
dilippkumar wrote: post #68

From Cynthia Tablot’s Precolonial India in Practice[0] > One peculiarity of Andhra society is that many of the leading warrior families made no pretensions to ksatriya status but instead proudly proclaimed their descent from the creator Bramha’s feet. This is an allusion to the famous origin myth first found in the Rig Veda wherein the four varnas are said to have originated from different portions of the body of Pur…

As you seem knowledgeable in this subject, are there any books you’d recommend that provide something closer to a “Swiss neutral” take, that captures more of the nuance found lacking here? I have Indian heritage but it’s not a topic that my relatives enjoy talking about, and I have also observed the myopia you note, in the most readily-available material on the subject. I’d love to read something more scholarly and i…

I have been wanting to read “The Hollow Crown, Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom” by Nicholas Dirk - that’s somewhat related.

He addresses caste more directly in a later book “Castes of Mind” - but I haven’t read that one either.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#137

Post by lowercasteguy »

canistel wrote: post #124
lowercasteguy wrote: post #112

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

I beg to differ on one point. I am a Christian from Kerala ( a Southern state). On most North Indian encounters, after a while, I start getting quizzed on what my ancestor's caste was. I eventually have to reveal that I have no clue, but we are General Category (not eligible for affirmative action - or reservation) and that sort of ends it usually. If they do not probe, may be they have already made up their mind, an…

Or you could just say that you have no caste and don't believe in it. Upper caste Hindus would like you to believe that you HAVE to disclose caste. I am also a convert and straight up tell them that my religion doesn't have the concept of a caste and end the matter there. It also helps that I changed my last name.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#138

Post by SamBam »

plaster wrote: post #9
clumsysmurf wrote: post #2

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

This is an extremely fraught topic, and I will give a very fraught answer: I think you did the right thing in this situation. She did not express anything malicious and she corrected herself (at least partially). It sounds like your colleague was doing something anyone would do (assessing someone by the social strictures they are familiar with) and did something wrong (devoted effort to it in a hiring context, said s…

I think the difference is that you're seeing it as akin to someone saying "I was trying to work out what religion they were."

Yes, it's illegal to discriminate based on religion, but in many parts of the country it's a big curiosity about other people (is he presbyterian?) and so many people may not be able to help privately trying to suss it out.

The difference is that cast is a rigid hierarchy, based on society-accepted discrimination, and there is no reason to try and figure it out other than to decide where they are in the pecking order.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#139

Post by troyjfarrell »

starpilot wrote: post #133
troyjfarrell wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience (anecdote) is the opposite. I worked for an Indian manager in a game studio. I don't know what caste, except that he wasn't Christian or Muslim, probably because he didn't think it worth mentioning. He hired based on demonstrated skill, so we had a diverse group of coworkers. He actively encouraged the group to eat together, arranging meals out with careful consideration for the group's preferences. He…

Parent comment is about multiple indians in a reporting group, not just one. This can greatly affect the group dynamic.

I think you are right. I had this part of the comment in mind:

> Then there is the case where if an Indian gets into management, they will start > filling everything with their friends. Other management positions, they will start > fighting to bring in some contractors from some place like Infosys.

This was not my experience. I also felt that the overall tone of the comment was negative, so I wanted to share that not everyone has had a negative experience with Indians in management.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#140

Post by RhysU »

klyrs wrote: post #33
clumsysmurf wrote: post #2

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

I've witnessed coworkers asking "awkward questions" before. I take notes and report it to HR. YMMV, not all HR departments are created equally. If your employer doesn't take it seriously, you can send an anonymous note to the candidate, which could support a lawsuit or complaint to the labor board. They might change their tune

> If your employer doesn't take it seriously, you can send an anonymous note to the candidate, which could support a lawsuit or complaint to the labor board.

Unless your concern rises to whistle-blower levels with external agencies, that sounds like a quick way to be fired.

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